Adrian
Co-operative Party
Posts: 1,742 
|
Post by Adrian on Sept 6, 2016 23:50:54 GMT
Here's my attempt to iron out the Commission's proposals a bit:
My theory about Craigavon-Dungannon is that they decided that they couldn't serve up Armagh-Dungannon, and this was as far as their imagination could take them.
|
|
johnloony
Conservative
Posts: 24,720
Member is Online
|
Post by johnloony on Sept 6, 2016 23:57:00 GMT
I may be a day late in responding, but I am astonished that the report itself doesn't include a map. |
|
|
|
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 7, 2016 0:08:49 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by AustralianSwingVoter on Sept 7, 2016 1:33:35 GMT
Lets hope that this won't be indicative of the BCE report
|
|
|
|
Post by AustralianSwingVoter on Sept 7, 2016 1:42:13 GMT
1 positive, the plan is more respectful of counties (grey dotted lines on jpg map) such as; not crossing Lagan, Lisburn in Antrim, North Tyrone-Glenshane border near perfect) |
|
|
|
Post by AustralianSwingVoter on Sept 7, 2016 2:45:52 GMT
My improvements on the plan: 1: Renaming to match Counties Strangford = East Down Newry & Armagh = South Armagh Upper Bann & Blackwater = North Armagh North Tyrone = East Tyrone Fermanagh & South Tyrone = Fermanagh & West Tyrone Foyle = West Londonderry OR Derry Glenshane = East Londonderry Dalriada = North Antrim 2: Changes to Constituencies Belfast North West loses Beechmount to Belfast South West gains Abbey and O'Neill and Rathcoole and Whitehouse from East Antrim Belfast South West gains Beechmount from Belfast North West Belfast East No Change North Down loses Ballyhanwood to East Down East Down loses Cairnshill and Carryduff East and Galwally to West Down gains Ballyhanwood from North Down West Down loses Bleary and Magheralin and Waringstown to North Armagh gains Cairnshill and Carryduff East and Galwally from East Down gains Loughbrickland from South Down South Down loses Loughbrickland to West Down South Armagh No Change North Armagh loses Ballysaggart and Caledon and Coalisland North and Coalisland South and Killyman and Killymeal and Moygashel and Washing Bay to East Tyrone gains Bleary and Magheralin and Waringstown from West Down Fermanagh & West Tyrone loses Augher & Clogher and Aughnacloy and Ballygawley and Castlecaulfield and Newtownsaville to East Tyrone gains Ballycolman and Fairy Water and Finn and Sion Mills and Strabane North and Strabane West from East Tyrone East Tyrone loses Artigarvan and Dunnamanagh and Glenelly Valley to East Londonderry loses Ballycolman and Fairy Water and Finn and Sion Mills and Strabane North and Strabane West to Fermanagh & West Tyrone gains Augher & Clogher and Aughnacloy and Ballygawley and Castlecaulfield and Newtownsaville from Fermanagh & West Tyrone gains Ballysaggart and Caledon and Coalisland North and Coalisland South and Killyman and Killymeal and Moygashel and Washing Bay from North Armagh West Londonderry gains Claudy and Greysteel from East Londonderry East Londonderry loses Claudy and Greysteel to West Londonderry gains Artigarvan and Dunnamanagh and Glenelly Valley from North Tyrone North Antrim loses Cullybackey and Kirkinriola and Maine and Portglenone to West Antrim gains Carnlough & Glenarm and Cairncastle from East Antrim West Antrim loses Ballyduff and Ballyhenry and Burnthill and Carnmoney and Fairview to East Antrim gains Cullybackey and Kirkinriola and Maine and Portglenone from North Antrim East Antrim loses Carnlough & Glenarm and Cairncastle to North Antrim loses Abbey and O'Neill and Rathcoole and Whitehouse to Belfast North West gains Ballyduff and Ballyhenry and Burnthill and Carnmoney and Fairview from West Antrim gains Hightown from South Antrim South Antrim loses Hightown to East Antrim  |
|
|
|
Post by islington on Sept 7, 2016 15:49:19 GMT
H'mm ...
Well, I'm no Northern Ireland expert (as this post is possibly about to make clear) but -
If we (a) ignore the names and focus on the actual boundaries; and (b) also set aside the electoral implications (which, after all, are not supposed to be a consideration): is it really that bad?
For one thing, it's high time the bullet was bitten and Belfast reduced to three seats. Also, I'd commend the BCNI for getting all the seats above the normal UK minimum of 71031 and refraining from using their licence to create seats below this number.
I can see the argument that the boundaries leave some towns very much on the edge of their seats, and that the Newtownabbey area in particular is a bit scrappy; but looking at the map as a whole, surely we've all seen a lot worse.
And on the names -
'Dalriada' seems wilfully obscure, and I'm not keen on 'Glenshane'. My preference for simple names (and dislike of water names) means I'd suggest 'Lurgan' or 'Craigavon' rather than 'Upper Bann and Blackwater'. 'Strangford' can be fixed simply by calling it 'East Down' (or, more ambitiously, by swapping Quoile, Strangford and the Downpatrick wards into the seat in exchange for Ballynahinch, Kilmore and Saintfield: Strangford 77346, S Down 71435). |
|
|
|
Post by ajthomson on Sept 7, 2016 17:24:40 GMT
H'mm ...
Well, I'm no Northern Ireland expert (as this post is possibly about to make clear) but -
If we (a) ignore the names and focus on the actual boundaries; and (b) also set aside the electoral implications (which, after all, are not supposed to be a consideration): is it really that bad?
For one thing, it's high time the bullet was bitten and Belfast reduced to three seats. Also, I'd commend the BCNI for getting all the seats above the normal UK minimum of 71031 and refraining from using their licence to create seats below this number.
I can see the argument that the boundaries leave some towns very much on the edge of their seats, and that the Newtownabbey area in particular is a bit scrappy; but looking at the map as a whole, surely we've all seen a lot worse.
And on the names -
'Dalriada' seems wilfully obscure, and I'm not keen on 'Glenshane'. My preference for simple names (and dislike of water names) means I'd suggest 'Lurgan' or 'Craigavon' rather than 'Upper Bann and Blackwater'. 'Strangford' can be fixed simply by calling it 'East Down' (or, more ambitiously, by swapping Quoile, Strangford and the Downpatrick wards into the seat in exchange for Ballynahinch, Kilmore and Saintfield: Strangford 77346, S Down 71435). Dalriada is one of those names that will probably mean more to locals than further afield. Nelson McCausland, the former Northern Ireland culture minister (his views on culture can make for colourful discussions themselves), and a vocal supporter of Ulster-Scots culture, often draws attention to how the ancient kingdom of Dalriada included both western Scotland and north Antrim, how the cultural links between this part of Northern Ireland and Scotland thus go back a long way before the 17th-century Plantation, and how attempts by nationalists to 'Irishize' Northern Ireland deliberately ignore this (I paraphrase, but that's the gist of his argument). (There's a fair bit of straw man about this argument, as Dalriada was historically a Gaelic/Highland part of Scotland, and not part of the Lowlands with which modern day Northern Irish unionists such as McCausland have much closer cultural links.) The name 'Dalriada' has survived in parts of northern Antrim: it's the name of a grammar school in Ballymoney, and there used to be a 'Dalriada' ward on the old Moyle council on the north Antrim coast. So the name won't be unfamiliar to locals, although they may well not know the history behind it. For an alternative, I suggest the alliterative 'Causeway Coast and Coleraine'. Glenshane has the advantage of not having the name 'Derry' or 'Londonderry' in it, which gives local politicians one less scab to pick at. But if it were called something Londonderry, it's a little unclear what the 'something' would be. 'East Londonderry' it certainly isn't (not without Coleraine and Portstewart) and 'Mid Londonderry' doesn't feel right either as the main population centres are towards the edges of the seat. 'Limavady and Magherafelt' might work, but they are both small towns and this is an area that probably sees itself more in terms of county than towns. 'Glenshane' seems to me as good as any, and has the advantage of brevity. Re Strangford, 'East Down' would work for the Ards peninsula and Newtownards, but not so much for the Belfast suburbs or Saintfield/Ballynahinch. 'Mid Down and Ards' might work, though 'Mid Down' is a bit nebulous. Obviously the fact that the village of Strangford isn't in the seat is odd, but most locals probably think of the lough rather than the village when 'Strangford' is mentioned. Re Upper Bann and Blackwater: maybe 'North Armagh and Dungannon'? |
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 7, 2016 17:59:34 GMT
Dalriada is a fairly daft name, partly because of its inherent sectarian associations, partly because it doesn't bear an especially strong relationship to the long-disappeared kingdom and partly because it's just not very descriptive. If we must use the names of minor Irish kingdoms for parliamentary seats, I vote we begin by renaming Newry & Armagh as Airgialla (or if that's too hard for English speakers, you can translate it as 'Hostage-givers', which would at least have the merit of confusing absolutely everybody.)
Glenshane isn't too bad, though it probably has more resonance for people driving through the constituency than for the residents.
In terms of boundaries, the major problem is not so much that towns are on the edge of seats, it's that towns are both split and on the edge of seats, and that this is totally unnecessary. For example, there's no need for Fermangh & South Tyrone to take in Castlederg, and if you don't do that then you can easily fix Dungannon.
|
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,058
Member is Online
|
Post by Sibboleth on Sept 7, 2016 18:04:46 GMT
The trouble with Respecting The Counties  is that the distribution of Ulster's population (i.e. this is true in the parts in the Republic also) does not. |
|
|
|
Post by ajthomson on Sept 7, 2016 19:03:31 GMT
Dalriada is a fairly daft name, partly because of its inherent sectarian associations, partly because it doesn't bear an especially strong relationship to the long-disappeared kingdom and partly because it's just not very descriptive. If we must use the names of minor Irish kingdoms for parliamentary seats, I vote we begin by renaming Newry & Armagh as Airgialla (or if that's too hard for English speakers, you can translate it as 'Hostage-givers', which would at least have the merit of confusing absolutely everybody.) Glenshane isn't too bad, though it probably has more resonance for people driving through the constituency than for the residents. In terms of boundaries, the major problem is not so much that towns are on the edge of seats, it's that towns are both split and on the edge of seats, and that this is totally unnecessary. For example, there's no need for Fermangh & South Tyrone to take in Castlederg, and if you don't do that then you can easily fix Dungannon. Part of my point about Dalriada was that despite McCausland's attempts to claim it for Ulster-Scots culture, the historical Dalriada was Gaelic culturally and linguistically and thus closer to the sort of 'Irish Ireland' that he habitually complains about. Moreover, the links between Scotland and Ulster (Donegal as much as Antrim) in medieval times are well-known to Irish historians, and are generally celebrated as examples of a flourishing Gaelic culture. So the name is one that both communities can legitimately claim for their own. But I take your point about its lack of geographical specificity. |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Figgis on Sept 7, 2016 19:38:29 GMT
The trouble with Respecting The Counties is that the distribution of Ulster's population (i.e. this is true in the parts in the Republic also) does not. That's true as much (or even more?) down south than in Ulster. It's hardly surprising. Populations congregate around rivers. Use rivers as county boundaries, and guess what- populations will be across county boundaries. Not that that's a bad thing- but using such counties as administrative areas is. After all, I largely grew up in Balham, Surrey- that doesn't mean that it is sensible having Surrey County Council administer the area as far as Deptford Creek. |
|
|
|
Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 7, 2016 19:58:03 GMT
The trouble with Respecting The Counties is that the distribution of Ulster's population (i.e. this is true in the parts in the Republic also) does not. That's true as much (or even more?) down south than in Ulster. It's hardly surprising. Populations congregate around rivers. Use rivers as county boundaries, and guess what- populations will be across county boundaries. Not that that's a bad thing- but using such counties as administrative areas is. After all, I largely grew up in Balham, Surrey- that doesn't mean that it is sensible having Surrey County Council administer the area as far as Deptford Creek. It would be absurd to have Surrey County council administer as far as Deptford Creek because it would be administering part of Kent |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2016 20:28:22 GMT
This is a review of the northern Ireland constituencies (6 counties in the UK) not Ulster (9 counties) seems to be some confusion among contributors
|
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 7, 2016 21:03:55 GMT
Dalriada is a fairly daft name, partly because of its inherent sectarian associations, partly because it doesn't bear an especially strong relationship to the long-disappeared kingdom and partly because it's just not very descriptive. If we must use the names of minor Irish kingdoms for parliamentary seats, I vote we begin by renaming Newry & Armagh as Airgialla (or if that's too hard for English speakers, you can translate it as 'Hostage-givers', which would at least have the merit of confusing absolutely everybody.) Glenshane isn't too bad, though it probably has more resonance for people driving through the constituency than for the residents. In terms of boundaries, the major problem is not so much that towns are on the edge of seats, it's that towns are both split and on the edge of seats, and that this is totally unnecessary. For example, there's no need for Fermangh & South Tyrone to take in Castlederg, and if you don't do that then you can easily fix Dungannon. Part of my point about Dalriada was that despite McCausland's attempts to claim it for Ulster-Scots culture, the historical Dalriada was Gaelic culturally and linguistically and thus closer to the sort of 'Irish Ireland' that he habitually complains about. Moreover, the links between Scotland and Ulster (Donegal as much as Antrim) in medieval times are well-known to Irish historians, and are generally celebrated as examples of a flourishing Gaelic culture. So the name is one that both communities can legitimately claim for their own. But I take your point about its lack of geographical specificity. Yes, but McCausland's argument is used rather more frequently amongst those trying to claim the 6th century has some sort of continuing relevance for North Antrim, since if you're on the other side of the communal divide there isn't any obvious reason you should care that Ireland and parts of western Scotland once shared a language. So for now one side lays claim to it, even if both of them theoretically could. Whereas North Antrim is more descriptive and harder to politicise. |
|
obsie
Non-Aligned
Posts: 866
|
Post by obsie on Sept 7, 2016 21:35:19 GMT
The trouble with Respecting The Counties is that the distribution of Ulster's population (i.e. this is true in the parts in the Republic also) does not. There does, however, tend to be a much stronger county identity in Ireland (both parts) than there would be in Great Britain. Not that Avon, Cleveland or Humberside were notable successes there either. |
|
obsie
Non-Aligned
Posts: 866
|
Post by obsie on Sept 7, 2016 21:42:27 GMT
Dalriada is a fairly daft name, partly because of its inherent sectarian associations, partly because it doesn't bear an especially strong relationship to the long-disappeared kingdom and partly because it's just not very descriptive. If we must use the names of minor Irish kingdoms for parliamentary seats, I vote we begin by renaming Newry & Armagh as Airgialla (or if that's too hard for English speakers, you can translate it as 'Hostage-givers', which would at least have the merit of confusing absolutely everybody.) The inhabitants of Monaghan might have something to say about the hijacking of (A/O)irghialla. I'd go for Tiranny, Orior and The Fews myself, with Upper Bann and Blackwater becoming Oneilland and Dungannon.   |
|
|
|
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 7, 2016 22:19:12 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by lancastrian on Sept 7, 2016 22:25:34 GMT
My suggested changes, based on the draft recommendations. I've used the lower Northern Ireland quota a lot, which is probably a problem. The main aim is to avoid splitting towns.
Belfast East(72001): No change.
North Down(74317): No change
Dalriada(72163): No change
Glenshane(74355): No change
Foyle(71398): No change
Belfast North West(70215):
Adds Ballymurphy from Belfast South West,
loses Collinbridge and Valley to East Antrim.
Belfast South West(70266):
Loses Ballymurphy to Belfast North West
Strangford (69434):
Adds Beechill, Newtownbreda, Knockbracken, Carryduff West from West Down.
Loses Saintfield, Kilmore, Ballynahinch to West Down,
Loses Crossgar & Killyleagh, Derryboy to South Down.
West Down(73125):
Adds Saintfield, Kilmore, Ballynahinch from Strangford
Adds Drumaness, Loughbrickland from South Down
Adds Ballinderry from South Antrim
Loses Beechill, Newtownbreda, Knockbracken, Carryduff West to Strangford
Loses Blaris, Hillhall to South Antrim
Loses Bleary to Upper Bann
South Down (73234)
Adds Crossgar & Killyleagh, Derryboy from Strangford
Loses Drumaness, Loughbrickland to West Down
Newry & Armagh (75389)
Adds Blackwatertown from Upper Bann
Loses Mahon to Upper Bann
Upper Bann (78390)
Adds Mahon from Newry & Armagh
Adds Bleary from West Down
Adds Mullaghmore from North Tyrone
Loses Blackwatertown to Newry & Armagh
Fermanagh & South Tyrone (70911)
Loses Newtownstewart to North Tyrone
North Tyrone (71565)
Adds Newtownstewart from FST
Loses Mullaghmore to Upper Bann
West Antrim / Mid Antrim ( 76899)
Adds Cairncastle, Carnlough & Glenarm, Kilwaughter, Larne(X4) from East Antrim
Loses Newtownabbey wards including Mossley to East Antrim
South Antrim (71619)
Adds Blaris, Hillhall from West Down
Loses Hightown to East Antrim
Loses Ballinderry to West Down
East Antrim (75597)
Adds Newtownabbey/Glengormley wards including Collinbridge, Valley and Mossley, but not Mallusk
Loses Cairncastle, Carnlough & Glenarm, Kilwaughter, Larne(4) to Mid Antrim.
I would be very grateful if someone could post this in map form, as I don't know how to do so from a mobile device. I hope the changes are as easy as possible to follow.
|
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Sept 7, 2016 22:40:55 GMT
Dalriada is a fairly daft name, Part of my point about Dalriada was that despite McCausland's attempts to claim it for Ulster-Scots culture, the historical Dalriada was Gaelic culturally and linguistically and thus closer to the sort of 'Irish Ireland' that he habitually complains about. Moreover, the links between Scotland and Ulster (Donegal as much as Antrim) in medieval times are well-known to Irish historians, and are generally celebrated as examples of a flourishing Gaelic culture. So the name is one that both communities can legitimately claim for their own. But I take your point about its lack of geographical specificity. It is a great pub in Portobello. I will be there soon enough. |
|
is that the distribution of Ulster's population (i.e. this is true in the parts in the Republic also) does not.
