Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 5, 2016 17:06:29 GMT
A continued and vehement no to 'Nottingham Clifton' from me as well. The real Clifton is in Bristol Pure classism. The real Clifton is in Salford.  The largest Clifton in the UK* is in Nottingham, anyways. It's not a suburb, it's mostly a huge council estate. And it's not far from downtown Nottingham, though it is across the Trent. There's a reason the proposed "West Bridgford" is notionally a seat Labour need to win. I suppose "Nottingham South & West Bridgford" is a troll suggestion? Ah. Never going to get on one page on that, then. Local name rec and tradition matter, I don't care about consistency. *the largest Clifton of all is in New Jersey. Classism? My aunt used to live in Clifton before the price of a maisonette went through the roof. I'd hardly call her posh. Salford is just a suburb of Manchester anyway. I think 'Nottingham South and West Bridgford' would be fine as a proposal, considering the stricter rules. Ha! I bet 'Plymouth North' and 'Plymouth South' broke your heart.  Dealing with the Commission can feel like banging one's head against a brick wall at times, yes. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 5, 2016 17:10:23 GMT
I prefer the second of the two plans for Rutland and Northamptonshire. If we're respecting the border between Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire, we shouldn't now be afraid to cross the Lincs/Notts border at the top end... |
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Post by minionofmidas on Oct 5, 2016 17:31:59 GMT
Pure classism. The real Clifton is in Salford. The largest Clifton in the UK* is in Nottingham, anyways. It's not a suburb, it's mostly a huge council estate. And it's not far from downtown Nottingham, though it is across the Trent. There's a reason the proposed "West Bridgford" is notionally a seat Labour need to win. I suppose "Nottingham South & West Bridgford" is a troll suggestion? Ah. Never going to get on one page on that, then. Local name rec and tradition matter, I don't care about consistency. *the largest Clifton of all is in New Jersey. Classism? My aunt used to live in Clifton before the price of a maisonette went through the roof. I'd hardly call her posh. Salford is just a suburb of Manchester anyway. I think 'Nottingham South and West Bridgford' would be fine as a proposal, considering the stricter rules. Ha! I bet 'Plymouth North' and 'Plymouth South' broke your heart. Dealing with the Commission can feel like banging one's head against a brick wall at times, yes. Given that there's so little else to discuss at the Devon hearings (apart from a few people from North Cornwall still arguing for a Tamarside border crossing), I am serenely confident that Plymouth North and Plymouth South will not walk alive out of the revised recommendations.  But (in a similar vein to Clifton here) I hope Plympton gets a foot into that Tavistock & Ivybridge name... though many suburban Tories are quite happy pretending their constituency is rural, so probably not. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 5, 2016 18:09:36 GMT
Ha! I bet 'Plymouth North' and 'Plymouth South' broke your heart. Dealing with the Commission can feel like banging one's head against a brick wall at times, yes. Given that there's so little else to discuss at the Devon hearings (apart from a few people from North Cornwall still arguing for a Tamarside border crossing), I am serenely confident that Plymouth North and Plymouth South will not walk alive out of the revised recommendations. But (in a similar vein to Clifton here) I hope Plympton gets a foot into that Tavistock & Ivybridge name... though many suburban Tories are quite happy pretending their constituency is rural, so probably not. Sounds like I'd better book myself a place at the Exeter hearings in order to defend them, in that case! 'Tavistock and Ivybridge' is a perfectly acceptable constituency name, by the way. |
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Post by greenhert on Oct 5, 2016 19:02:09 GMT
A continued and vehement no to 'Nottingham Clifton' from me as well. The real Clifton is in Bristol Pure classism. The real Clifton is in Salford. The largest Clifton in the UK* is in Nottingham, anyways. It's not a suburb, it's mostly a huge council estate. And it's not far from downtown Nottingham, though it is across the Trent. There's a reason the proposed "West Bridgford" is notionally a seat Labour need to win. I suppose "Nottingham South & West Bridgford" is a troll suggestion? Ah. Never going to get on one page on that, then. Local name rec and tradition matter, I don't care about consistency. *the largest Clifton of all is in New Jersey. 'Nottingham South & West Bridgford' was in the 2013 zombie review, so it is not a 'troll suggestion'.
The boundaries of Nottingham South from 1955 to 1974 were 'The county borough of Nottingham wards of Bridge, Clifton, Lenton, and Trent, and the urban district of West Bridgford' so this exact constituency has existed before. It had Labour representation from 1966 to 1970.
I personally think it makes good sense.
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YL
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Post by YL on Oct 5, 2016 19:44:13 GMT
West Bridgford is functionally part of Nottingham anyway. It even contains Nottingham Forest's ground and the cricket ground which everyone thinks of as being in Nottingham.
Whatever, please can somebody tell Electoral Calculus that it shouldn't be referred to as "Bridgford West".
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 5, 2016 22:51:58 GMT
West Bridgford is functionally part of Nottingham anyway. It even contains Nottingham Forest's ground and the cricket ground which everyone thinks of as being in Nottingham. It really should be part of Nottingham. |
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Post by greenhert on Oct 5, 2016 23:26:33 GMT
West Bridgford is functionally part of Nottingham anyway. It even contains Nottingham Forest's ground and the cricket ground which everyone thinks of as being in Nottingham. It really should be part of Nottingham. Incidentally, they once tried to transfer Long Eaton from Derbyshire to Nottinghamshire on a similar basis (look up Local Government Act 1972 on Wikipedia and specifically look up proposals that did not make it into the final version).
The 'Greater Nottingham' area you quote covers 430,159 electors, not quite enough for six viable constituencies. Also, to avoid causing unnecessary disruption to Derbyshire's constituencies, I would rather that Long Eaton be left in Derbyshire for now, pending (as yet not created) local government legislation to formally create a Greater Nottingham area as you hint at in the link you have provided for us. For ease of constituency creation in the 2018 review, leaving out Hucknall and Long Eaton is the best option within this area, as you end up with 370,423 electors, enough for 4.95 constituencies which is more useful.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 5, 2016 23:35:16 GMT
West Bridgford is functionally part of Nottingham anyway. It even contains Nottingham Forest's ground and the cricket ground which everyone thinks of as being in Nottingham. Whatever, please can somebody tell Electoral Calculus that it shouldn't be referred to as "Bridgford West".  This is slightly beyond the scope of this thread, but I cannot object to that idea strongly enough. The further away this country gets from a county-based structure of local government, the worse things get for local identity and civic pride. That is still more important than some people realise. Local authorities should not just be about the most efficient way to empty the bins. |
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Post by minionofmidas on Oct 6, 2016 8:49:29 GMT
Pure classism. The real Clifton is in Salford. The largest Clifton in the UK* is in Nottingham, anyways. It's not a suburb, it's mostly a huge council estate. And it's not far from downtown Nottingham, though it is across the Trent. There's a reason the proposed "West Bridgford" is notionally a seat Labour need to win. I suppose "Nottingham South & West Bridgford" is a troll suggestion? Ah. Never going to get on one page on that, then. Local name rec and tradition matter, I don't care about consistency. *the largest Clifton of all is in New Jersey. 'Nottingham South & West Bridgford' was in the 2013 zombie review, so it is not a 'troll suggestion'.
The boundaries of Nottingham South from 1955 to 1974 were 'The county borough of Nottingham wards of Bridge, Clifton, Lenton, and Trent, and the urban district of West Bridgford' so this exact constituency has existed before. It had Labour representation from 1966 to 1970.
I personally think it makes good sense.
That's not the exact same constituency though - this one is 1/4 in Nottingham, doesn't include the centre of the city, and includes rural places beyond West Bridgford. (I don't actually have a problem with 'Nottingham South' as a naming particle for it.) |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 6, 2016 10:39:04 GMT
This is slightly beyond the scope of this thread, but I cannot object to that idea strongly enough. The further away this country gets from a county-based structure of local government, the worse things get for local identity and civic pride. That is still more important than some people realise. Local authorities should not just be about the most efficient way to empty the bins. So.... Sheffield should give Dore, Norton, Woodhouse, Intake, Beighton, Birley and Mosborough back to Derbyshire? Sometimes with authorities tight up against a boundary tweeks to that boundary are appropriate. |
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 6, 2016 12:50:05 GMT
I've learned there's no arguing with the traditional county fanatics. Good government is irrelevant to them. While on the one hand it is by definition conservative, it also fits like a glove with modern identity politics, ironically enough, a point most traditional county fanatics hate.
In any case as suggested on another thread, exactly when do you go back to? Why not Mercia?
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Post by minionofmidas on Oct 6, 2016 14:07:47 GMT
I've learned there's no arguing with the traditional county fanatics. Good government is irrelevant to them. While on the one hand it is by definition conservative, it also fits like a glove with modern identity politics, ironically enough, a point most traditional county fanatics hate. In any case as suggested on another thread, exactly when do you go back to? The state of affairs before the Roman invasion messed everything up for good? |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 6, 2016 16:32:44 GMT
This is slightly beyond the scope of this thread, but I cannot object to that idea strongly enough. The further away this country gets from a county-based structure of local government, the worse things get for local identity and civic pride. That is still more important than some people realise. Local authorities should not just be about the most efficient way to empty the bins. So.... Sheffield should give Dore, Norton, Woodhouse, Intake, Beighton, Birley and Mosborough back to Derbyshire? Sometimes with authorities tight up against a boundary tweeks to that boundary are appropriate. I believe you mean 'tweaks', unless you are talking about the character from South Park with a nervous tic resulting from caffeine withdrawal. A good cut-off point is the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, but I actually like some of the tidying-up that's taken place since then, as it didn't remove non-contiguous areas completely. I'd be all for Newmarket moving from Suffolk to Cambridgeshire, for example, as long as Peterborough is recognised as a 'Soke' once again and Huntingdonshire is restored to full county status. Some people on here have a bizarre definition of 'good' governance. |
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Post by greenhert on Oct 6, 2016 20:46:16 GMT
So.... Sheffield should give Dore, Norton, Woodhouse, Intake, Beighton, Birley and Mosborough back to Derbyshire? Sometimes with authorities tight up against a boundary tweeks to that boundary are appropriate. I believe you mean 'tweaks', unless you are talking about the character from South Park with a nervous tic resulting from caffeine withdrawal. A good cut-off point is the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, but I actually like some of the tidying-up that's taken place since then, as it didn't remove non-contiguous areas completely. I'd be all for Newmarket moving from Suffolk to Cambridgeshire, for example, as long as Peterborough is recognised as a 'Soke' once again and Huntingdonshire is restored to full county status. Some people on here have a bizarre definition of 'good' governance. Newmarket council tried to perform that exact move back in 1972 for the Local Government Act, but their request was denied.
However, when a 'Newmarket & Ely' constituency was initially suggested by the boundary commission in 2011 (this proposal never made it off the drawing board) residents of Newmarket objected to being moved from Suffolk for constituency purposes, citing the fact Newmarket looks eastwards not westwards.
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Post by An Sionnach Flannbhuí on Oct 6, 2016 21:22:27 GMT
I've learned there's no arguing with the traditional county fanatics. Good government is irrelevant to them. While on the one hand it is by definition conservative, it also fits like a glove with modern identity politics, ironically enough, a point most traditional county fanatics hate. In any case as suggested on another thread, exactly when do you go back to? Why not Mercia? County boundaries largely survived up to the 70s, well within most folks' memories; in Ireland they remain still. On the other hand, perhaps not too many around resentful of the Bastard's abolition of Mercia for these new fangled counties. The fact that most present English counties bear relation to historic versions (Shropshire is I believe the closest relation, but others survive is Somerset = Somerset + 2 unitaries in effect) gives rise to qualms, "Why then did they need to take X out of Y?" |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 7, 2016 0:04:17 GMT
I believe you mean 'tweaks', unless you are talking about the character from South Park with a nervous tic resulting from caffeine withdrawal. A good cut-off point is the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, but I actually like some of the tidying-up that's taken place since then, as it didn't remove non-contiguous areas completely. I'd be all for Newmarket moving from Suffolk to Cambridgeshire, for example, as long as Peterborough is recognised as a 'Soke' once again and Huntingdonshire is restored to full county status. Some people on here have a bizarre definition of 'good' governance. Newmarket council tried to perform that exact move back in 1972 for the Local Government Act, but their request was denied.
However, when a 'Newmarket & Ely' constituency was initially suggested by the boundary commission in 2011 (this proposal never made it off the drawing board) residents of Newmarket objected to being moved from Suffolk for constituency purposes, citing the fact Newmarket looks eastwards not westwards.
So, the councillors of 45 years ago were wiser than the residents of 5 years ago. Newmarket does gravitate towards Bury St Edmunds rather than Cambridge, true, but the actual county border there is absurd. For cricketing purposes, Somerset also includes those parts of Bristol located south of the River Avon (well, one of them). It's never straightforward what people mean by 'county' over here, but it could jolly well be made straightforward if for once we were to have a government that engaged in joined-up thinking when it comes to all aspects of subnational administration. The last time we had that was around the turn of the 70s – though they still missed out things like uniform postcodes and dialling codes (probably impossible now that Royal Mail and BT are privatised) – but the consensus from then quickly and gradually started to be picked apart, and we're left with an utter mess. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 7, 2016 18:04:41 GMT
Newmarket definitely looks more to Cambridge than to Bury St Edmunds, as anybody who listens to the morning traffic news will know.
I have to say I find the nostalgia for Huntingdonshire rather odd, given that it very rarely comes from the former county. And effectively you've already got the Soke of Peterborough back, it's just that it's called Peterborough UA. (Unless you're calling for Fletton and Stanground to be administered as part of Huntingdonshire, in which case there's no reasoning with you.)
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Post by minionofmidas on Oct 8, 2016 9:59:14 GMT
Newmarket definitely looks more to Cambridge than to Bury St Edmunds, as anybody who listens to the morning traffic news will know. Or is the only reason the traffic is that bad that they're all looking over their shoulder towards Bury St Edmunds while driving to Cambridge, causing traffic accidents? |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 9, 2016 0:09:03 GMT
Newmarket definitely looks more to Cambridge than to Bury St Edmunds, as anybody who listens to the morning traffic news will know. I have to say I find the nostalgia for Huntingdonshire rather odd, given that it very rarely comes from the former county. And effectively you've already got the Soke of Peterborough back, it's just that it's called Peterborough UA. So, either you and your local traffic reports are wrong, or greenhert is. If it's the latter, there's no reason not to move Newmarket into Cambridgeshire. It basically is the old Soke, especially as Peterborough even still has its own fire service. It would be nice if they used the historic name rather than 'UA', though. Peterborough was also not considered separately from Cambridgeshire when deciding upon which region places should belong to. It could be argued that Peterborough would be better served being placed in the same region as Northamptonshire, Rutland and Lincolnshire. That could make things easier when drawing parliamentary constituencies. |
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The largest Clifton in the UK* is in Nottingham, anyways. 
But (in a similar vein to Clifton here) I hope Plympton gets a foot into that Tavistock & Ivybridge name... though many suburban Tories are quite happy pretending their constituency is rural, so probably not.
