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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 1, 2014 11:23:00 GMT
In the Sixties under Jo Grimond's leadership, the Liberals often stood aside for the SNP, but the SNP did not want a formal pact as the Liberals believed only in devolution, not independence. But what would happen if the SNP had taken a more pragmatic approach?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 1, 2014 17:39:11 GMT
I must admit, I never knew that the Liberals intentionally stood down in favour of the SNP. I just assumed that if they didn't stand in some constituencies in Scotland, it was solely because they didn't have anyone willing to stand, or any local organisation able to mount a campaign. In answer to the question, I don't know. I think it would have given the SNP greater credibility - they were really seen as just a bunch of eccentrics until the 1970s - and hastened their growth, but on the other hand, the need to accommodate another party could have placed a ceiling on their development by preventing them building up support and organisation in Liberal-leaning areas. Interesting piece by David Steel touching on the subject: libdemlords.wordpress.com/2013/05/18/lord-david-steel-jo-grimonds-legacy/
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 2, 2014 0:38:02 GMT
'When he was frustrated at the poor transport links to his constituency he underlined the point by filling in a bureaucratic form for the Commons authorities naming his nearest railway station as Bergen – which for Shetland was true'
Is this actually true?
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 2, 2014 0:46:15 GMT
'When he was frustrated at the poor transport links to his constituency he underlined the point by filling in a bureaucratic form for the Commons authorities naming his nearest railway station as Bergen – which for Shetland was true' Is this actually true? I don't think so. Lerwick to Bergen is 358km. Lerwick to Thurso is 265km. One of the 'facts' that the press gobble up without checking.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 2, 2014 0:48:00 GMT
Yes that was my thought, I glanced at a map but wasn't sure that Thurso was the nearest railhead. It seemed unlikely.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 0:49:56 GMT
'When he was frustrated at the poor transport links to his constituency he underlined the point by filling in a bureaucratic form for the Commons authorities naming his nearest railway station as Bergen – which for Shetland was true' Is this actually true? It seems like a 50s doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ . I mean what does he expect living on an island 100 miles north of the mainland populated by a few thousand people.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 2, 2014 0:57:11 GMT
Yes that was my thought, I glanced at a map but wasn't sure that Thurso was the nearest railhead. It seemed unlikely. It is either Wick or Thurso that is nearer. There is not a lot in it either way. The ferries go from Scrabster and that is near to Thurso Station. I cannot even think of Scrabster without feeling very itchy.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 2, 2014 1:05:10 GMT
I think he normally finesses it by saying "mainline railway station", arguing that the Far North Line isn't really an intercity route.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 2, 2014 1:07:50 GMT
I wonder if one of the other islands is nearer a Northern Ireland station than a Scottish one.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 2, 2014 1:36:40 GMT
I think he normally finesses it by saying "mainline railway station", arguing that the Far North Line isn't really an intercity route. You will get to London a bloody sight quicker via Thurso than via Bergen. OK they use crappy DMUs on the North Line but it remains a main line service.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 2, 2014 9:38:18 GMT
The more I read about Grimond, the more he seems to have been a self-assured, smug tosser who fervently believed in his own wit. Fairly effective leader, mind.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 2, 2014 10:07:09 GMT
I think he normally finesses it by saying "mainline railway station", arguing that the Far North Line isn't really an intercity route. The Bergen to Oslo line isn't exactly a bullet train, either.
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2014 11:29:11 GMT
I think he normally finesses it by saying "mainline railway station", arguing that the Far North Line isn't really an intercity route. The Bergen to Oslo line isn't exactly a bullet train, either. I have used both services and can attest to Bergen-Oslo being a full mainline service and the Far North not. However as David rightly says, the Far North goes in the right direction, and it does have the closer station I would have thought, even from north Unst.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 2, 2014 15:04:03 GMT
The Bergen to Oslo line isn't exactly a bullet train, either. I have used both services and can attest to Bergen-Oslo being a full mainline service and the Far North not. However as David rightly says, the Far North goes in the right direction, and it does have the closer station I would have thought, even from north Unst. What do you mean by mainline railway? The distinction used to be between main line and branch line railways. If the North Line is a branch it must be the longest branch in history. Drem to North Berwick is a branch line as is to Oxenholme to Windermere. Inverness to Thurso is not. That definition is somewhat obsolete as most branch lines were closed down in the aftermath of Beeching. Now the distinction is between main line railways and urban metro systems and the like. Hence the London Underground (and Overground) is a metro system as is the Tyne Wear Metro, Merseyrail, Glasgow Subway, not to mention the tram systems in Manchester, Edinburgh, Sheffield, West Midlands, Nottingham, Croyden, Blackpool, etc. Clearly the North Line is not a branch line nor is it an urban metro system. If it is not mainline, what is it?
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 2, 2014 15:18:32 GMT
A mainline is one with through trains that acts as a 'spine' for branches etc, no? Perhaps most people would consider it to be one with intercity services, or one that connects two or more hubs directly. I've used the Far North Line and don't really consider it to be a mainline route, even if it is the only route that can be taken.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 19:23:23 GMT
Do you have to change at Inverness for London? If so, its a branch line. If not, its a mainline, unless you consider Inverness/Perth a branch line too. What does the term branch line even mean? Is St. Erth to St. Ives (to take a very local isolated short example with no further connections) a branch line?
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Dec 2, 2014 19:28:48 GMT
I am a member of the Branch Line Society www.branchline.org.uk/I think it's fair to say that its members make the members of this forum seem positively well-adjusted. This is an example of the regular newsletter: www.branchline.org.uk/bln_sample.pdfThrilling stuff, I'm sure you agree. Sometimes it has some sections that are clearly written by typewriter.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 2, 2014 20:49:00 GMT
I am a member of the Branch Line Society www.branchline.org.uk/I think it's fair to say that its members make the members of this forum seem positively well-adjusted. This is an example of the regular newsletter: www.branchline.org.uk/bln_sample.pdfThrilling stuff, I'm sure you agree. Sometimes it has some sections that are clearly written by typewriter. It's ...... a touch esoteric isn't it?
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 2, 2014 21:06:16 GMT
I am a member of the Branch Line Society www.branchline.org.uk/I think it's fair to say that its members make the members of this forum seem positively well-adjusted. This is an example of the regular newsletter: www.branchline.org.uk/bln_sample.pdfThrilling stuff, I'm sure you agree. Sometimes it has some sections that are clearly written by typewriter. I think its fair to say that this thread has been shunted down a branch line - please re-assure us that the printer re-appeared, we'll only worry otherwise. I had to go to the website to understand the Barrow Hill entry - and I speak as someone whose ward party meets on the site of an old branch line station.
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2014 23:07:41 GMT
I have used both services and can attest to Bergen-Oslo being a full mainline service and the Far North not. However as David rightly says, the Far North goes in the right direction, and it does have the closer station I would have thought, even from north Unst. What do you mean by mainline railway? The distinction used to be between main line and branch line railways. If the North Line is a branch it must be the longest branch in history. Drem to North Berwick is a branch line as is to Oxenholme to Windermere. Inverness to Thurso is not. That definition is somewhat obsolete as most branch lines were closed down in the aftermath of Beeching. Now the distinction is between main line railways and urban metro systems and the like. Hence the London Underground (and Overground) is a metro system as is the Tyne Wear Metro, Merseyrail, Glasgow Subway, not to mention the tram systems in Manchester, Edinburgh, Sheffield, West Midlands, Nottingham, Croyden, Blackpool, etc. Clearly the North Line is not a branch line nor is it an urban metro system. If it is not mainline, what is it? OK John. See your point but don't agree it. The only bit of the former Highland Railway that can be dignified with term main line is Perth-Inverness, and at a real push the Inverness-Keith section of the Aberdeen route. The Far North Line is long (boy is it long?) but at 3-trains a day and single track with no staffed stations in between the two ends, it can hardly be said to be 'Main'. It is a minor regional route of the sort England lost virtually everywhere but the Scots kept for strategic and public reasons (Navy, Nuclear, Timber, Oil Rigs) and which stay on as sops to the rapacious desire for Scots to absorb public cash.
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