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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 17, 2014 7:48:48 GMT
He didn't introduce any liberal measures for legislation - it was a military empire, not a democracy. As for governance, he was interested in modernisation, not in liberalism. It was enlightened despotism, nothing more. Enlightened despotism was sadly not restricted to Napoleon- it was propounded loudly by the greatest fraud of the Enlightenment, Voltaire. Who somewhat unsurprisingly knew just the man for the job. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Nov 17, 2014 10:27:30 GMT
He didn't introduce any liberal measures for legislation - it was a military empire, not a democracy. As for governance, he was interested in modernisation, not in liberalism. It was enlightened despotism, nothing more. Modern and liberal for the day in the places where they were introduced ..... remember continental Europe was not the UK, serfdom and feudal law were the norm. You could call it enlightened despotism but it is a bit harsh Despotism isn't a harsh term for Napoleon. He took and held power by force. That makes him a despot. |
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slon
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Post by slon on Nov 17, 2014 11:00:50 GMT
Modern and liberal for the day in the places where they were introduced ..... remember continental Europe was not the UK, serfdom and feudal law were the norm. You could call it enlightened despotism but it is a bit harsh Despotism isn't a harsh term for Napoleon. He took and held power by force. That makes him a despot. Despotism is usually about forceful oppression of the population .... there is no real evidence Napoleon did that, in fact he seemed to have been rather popular, certainly more so than the regimes he overthrew. Also witness the continued use of code Napoleon and the lack of popular movements to oust his appointees even after his demise. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Nov 17, 2014 12:46:44 GMT
Napoleon certainly had popular support in France. In 1848 his nephew Louis Bonaparte was elected President of of the Second French Republic with nearly 75% of the vote. He subsequently became Emperor Napoleon III after a coup. Bonapartism became a lasting force in French politics appealing to both left and right. Gaullism captured much of this tradition a century later.
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slon
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Post by slon on Jun 23, 2015 10:13:23 GMT
Reassurance for would be politicians .....
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 4, 2015 20:36:22 GMT
Had the French won at Waterloo the menagerie at the Tower of London might have lasted longer.
And Huskisson probably wouldn't have been run over at the opening of the L&M Railway.
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 19, 2018 15:28:49 GMT
To shift the question a little.
What would have happened if Wellington had been incapacitated early in the battle and Uxbridge had taken command?
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Post by No Offence Alan on Sept 19, 2018 16:09:15 GMT
To shift the question a little. What would have happened if Wellington had been incapacitated early in the battle and Uxbridge had taken command? If Uxbridge had been somewhere else other than where he was, he might not have lost his leg. No, I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of the battle of Waterloo, I just happen to have visited Plas Newydd, seat of the Uxbridges/Angleseys a few weeks ago and absorbed a little history. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Sept 19, 2018 19:11:42 GMT
To shift the question a little. What would have happened if Wellington had been incapacitated early in the battle and Uxbridge had taken command? If Uxbridge had been somewhere else other than where he was, he might not have lost his leg. No, I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of the battle of Waterloo, I just happen to have visited Plas Newydd, seat of the Uxbridges/Angleseys a few weeks ago and absorbed a little history. That would deprive us of one of my favourite bits of alleged dialogue: Uxbridge: "By God, Sir, I've lost my leg" Wellington: "By God, Sir, so you have." (Notoriously Wellington didn't much like Uxbridge, who'd eloped with Wellington's sister or some such peccadillo.) Isn't the leg in a mausoleum of some sort on the battlefield? |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Sept 19, 2018 19:14:22 GMT
To shift the question a little. What would have happened if Wellington had been incapacitated early in the battle and Uxbridge had taken command? Wellington's own verdict was: "It has been a damned nice thing - the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life...By God! I don't think it would have done if I had not been there." |
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Izzyeviel
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Post by Izzyeviel on Sept 19, 2018 21:04:02 GMT
The battle of Mont-St-Jean would be remembered as an heroic battle where the British inflicted such big casualties on the French that they were forced to surrender anyway. The last great pyrrhic victory.
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 20, 2018 8:42:14 GMT
To shift the question a little. What would have happened if Wellington had been incapacitated early in the battle and Uxbridge had taken command? Wellington's own verdict was: "It has been a damned nice thing - the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life...By God! I don't think it would have done if I had not been there." Sounds just a trifle big headed ... but probably correct. Uxbridge did not have a good record in command, it is unlikely he would have been able to hold together the British, Dutch and Hanoverian forces.
Also quite possible he would have fallen into the various tactical traps and moved troops around to the flanks (most other commanders would have).
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 20, 2018 8:48:46 GMT
The battle of Mont-St-Jean would be remembered as an heroic battle where the British inflicted such big casualties on the French that they were forced to surrender anyway. The last great pyrrhic victory. last time I visited there was an appartment to let in the farmhouse at Mont-St-Jean.
Dissagree about the pyrrhic victory, if the Anglo-allied Army had been forced to retreat it would have disintegrated, the Prussians would have been lucky to see German soil again.
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Izzyeviel
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Post by Izzyeviel on Sept 20, 2018 19:42:08 GMT
The battle of Mont-St-Jean would be remembered as an heroic battle where the British inflicted such big casualties on the French that they were forced to surrender anyway. The last great pyrrhic victory. last time I visited there was an apartment to let in the farmhouse at Mont-St-Jean.
Disagree about the pyrrhic victory, if the Anglo-allied Army had been forced to retreat it would have disintegrated, the Prussians would have been lucky to see German soil again.
I think all that depends on the state of the French cavalry - do the allies get defeated before or after Ney's mad cavalry charges? Wellington still had considerable reserves, and the Prussians had reorganised after Ligny, despite the mauling they were still able to march and then engage the French for most of the day at Waterloo. But thank god he was defeated at Waterloo, the song would be a bit shit otherwise. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 20, 2018 20:28:53 GMT
last time I visited there was an apartment to let in the farmhouse at Mont-St-Jean. Disagree about the pyrrhic victory, if the Anglo-allied Army had been forced to retreat it would have disintegrated, the Prussians would have been lucky to see German soil again.
I think all that depends on the state of the French cavalry - do the allies get defeated before or after Ney's mad cavalry charges? Wellington still had considerable reserves, and the Prussians had reorganised after Ligny, despite the mauling they were still able to march and then engage the French for most of the day at Waterloo. But thank god he was defeated at Waterloo, the song would be a bit shit otherwise. Well, the song's historically inaccurate within the first stanza, so would it matter? |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 20, 2018 20:32:18 GMT
Beef Wellington would be a much less popular dish.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 20, 2018 20:34:15 GMT
Had the French won at Waterloo the menagerie at the Tower of London might have lasted longer. And Huskisson probably wouldn't have been run over at the opening of the L&M Railway. Bumped to remind people of the really important issues. Probably wouldn't have had much impact on real ale I suppose. |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 20, 2018 22:49:51 GMT
Beef Wellington would be a much less popular dish. The boot would be on some other foot? |
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 21, 2018 16:10:04 GMT
last time I visited there was an apartment to let in the farmhouse at Mont-St-Jean.
Disagree about the pyrrhic victory, if the Anglo-allied Army had been forced to retreat it would have disintegrated, the Prussians would have been lucky to see German soil again.
I think all that depends on the state of the French cavalry - do the allies get defeated before or after Ney's mad cavalry charges?Wellington still had considerable reserves, and the Prussians had reorganised after Ligny, despite the mauling they were still able to march and then engage the French for most of the day at Waterloo. But thank god he was defeated at Waterloo, the song would be a bit shit otherwise. Ney ordered the charges because he thought the centre had been weakened (but it hadn't) If it had been weakened because troops had been moved to Hougoumont and East of La Haye Sainte then the squares might not have held and all hell would have broken loose.
Just looking at the map again the apartment to let was not in Mont-St-Jean it was in the farmhouse of La Haye Sainte.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 18:39:18 GMT
I think Trafalgar was the more decisive battle.
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