Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 6, 2014 21:26:31 GMT
Of course Fidesz changed the system so that the main party also gets top-up votes and so they have 2/3rds of the seats without half of the votes even though the system is meant to be proportional
Its a bit like Putin. The appeal of the strongman leader with nationalistic views. Hateful people, from my point of view
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Post by Devonian on Apr 6, 2014 23:25:04 GMT
Projection with 97.21% counted
Fidesz 133 (96 Constituency, 37 List)
Unity 38 (10 Consituency, 28 List)
Jobbik 23 (23 List)
LMP 5 (5 List)
All the constituencies are over 90 counted with the sole exception of BORSOD–ABAÚJ–ZEMPLÉN county 02. (Miskolc) Constiuency which is only 72% counted and where there is a tight 3 way race between Unity, Fidesz and Jobbik. Unity presently lead in that constituency.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Apr 7, 2014 7:24:46 GMT
Of course Fidesz changed the system so that the main party also gets top-up votes and so they have 2/3rds of the seats without half of the votes even though the system is meant to be proportional Its a bit like Putin. The appeal of the strongman leader with nationalistic views. Hateful people, from my point of view Isn't there a similar arrangement in Italy? The largest party gets an extra fifty seats? |
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Post by iainbhx on Apr 7, 2014 11:26:42 GMT
Of course Fidesz changed the system so that the main party also gets top-up votes and so they have 2/3rds of the seats without half of the votes even though the system is meant to be proportional Its a bit like Putin. The appeal of the strongman leader with nationalistic views. Hateful people, from my point of view Isn't there a similar arrangement in Italy? The largest party gets an extra fifty seats? That's Greece, or it was Greece, they tinker with it fairly frequently. This isn't quite that, it's just the top-up isn't adjusted for the constituency results. |
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Apr 7, 2014 11:55:43 GMT
Isn't there a similar arrangement in Italy? The largest party gets an extra fifty seats? That's Greece, or it was Greece, they tinker with it fairly frequently. This isn't quite that, it's just the top-up isn't adjusted for the constituency results. Ian is correct. In Hungary, allocation of list seats reflect the share of the vote each party got in its nationwide total (but excludes those parties that scored less than 5% of the vote). It does not seek to redress any proportional imbalance in the constitutency vote that exists between the % share of the constituency vote and the % share of constituency seats. |
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Apr 7, 2014 12:03:27 GMT
Isn't there a similar arrangement in Italy? The largest party gets an extra fifty seats? Yes, for the time being. In the lower house of the Italian parliament, a party the receives the largest share of the national vote, but that hasn't as a result won for itself 340 seats or more, is allocated a 'top up' number of seats in order to get it to the 340 figure. This will then give it a workable majority of 50 seats over all other parties. This measure was introduced to enable Italian governments to last more than six months(!), although the country's Constitutional Court has expressed concern, and the rules may yet change. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 7, 2014 15:54:07 GMT
Of course Fidesz changed the system so that the main party also gets top-up votes and so they have 2/3rds of the seats without half of the votes even though the system is meant to be proportional Its a bit like Putin. The appeal of the strongman leader with nationalistic views. Hateful people, from my point of view Isn't there a similar arrangement in Italy? The largest party gets an extra fifty seats? I think its Greece. Another corruption free country. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 16:58:08 GMT
I think its Greece. Another corruption free country. Sadly, corruption is rarely free. |
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Post by coolhandluke on Apr 13, 2015 12:00:48 GMT
It looks like Jobbik may have won a parliamentary by-election in the Veszprem county seat of Tapolca in the West of Hungary according to results from the National Election Office on Sunday with 99.1 percent of the votes counted. ( Result in the single-member seat of Tapolca at the 2014 GE in brackets) Tapolca by-election Jobbik - 35.27% (23.49%) Fidesz-KDNP - 34.38% (43.14%) MSZP-DK - 26.27 (27.34%) LMP - 2.05% (2.96%) |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 13, 2015 14:51:43 GMT
At least they are openly fascist.
It really is bizarre that Fidesz started life as a left-progressive Liberal party
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Feb 24, 2020 14:06:37 GMT
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 3, 2020 5:18:20 GMT
Wikipedia provides this fascinating map from the 1880ies: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Political_map_of_the_Ausgleich.jpg(Green is proGovernment, red is opposition) In TransLeithania ("Hungary") the (right-) Liberal Party was ruling (as always before 1905), relying on those Hungarians, who were minorities in their fringe-areas and had nothing to gain from democratisation. In CisLeithania ("Austria") the liberal era ended 1878 (at the same time as v.BISMARCK's turn from liberalism to a "Christian" socialism and the rise of the PettyBourgeoisie in general). The new conservative "Iron Ring" relied on the catholic Alpines and the Slavs (Poles and Czechs) against the mostly liberal bourgeoisie of GermanSpeakers in northern Bohemia&Moravia&AustrianSilesia. Note, that in present-day Austria not only the usual suspects - the mining/industrial areas of Carinthia&UpperStyria&SE-LowerA.&Vienna - were in the nonclerical camp, but also LowerAustria in general (due to the huge impact of Vienna; this changed later). CisLeithania used before 1907 4 tiers as electoral units, meaning, that this map is very schematical; in fact it was far more complicate. (For example: In the class of the "CommerceChambers" 10-20 were often able to elect 1 MP [as in Britain's rotten boroughs helping mostly moderate Liberals, by the way].) |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 7, 2020 14:45:03 GMT
Found it: Adalbert Toth, "Parteien und Reichstagswahlen in Ungarn 1848 - 1892" (1973). |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 14, 2020 19:57:37 GMT
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 14, 2020 20:01:46 GMT
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 15, 2020 2:05:17 GMT
Sorry for publishing my maps without legend, but when finding the copied ones i immediately stopped mine.
Pink = National minorities among the (Far)Left
LightestBlue = moved between yellow Centristic Indep. and blue RightLiberals
DarkOrange = moved between orange LeftLiberals and red (Far)Left
Purple = moved between Right and Left
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 15, 2020 2:20:29 GMT
Merry old Hungary had interesting similarities and dissimilarities with England: Both were dominated by a gentry relying strongly on the shires sive comitati ("megyek"), "small republics" under a MonArchy. As a result of having defended their privilegues for centuries, they were good in politics, yet bad in policies (=ideologies): High practical skills, but a low level of theoretical reflection. Whereas the apolitical bourgeoisie in France and Germany came up with coherent ideologies and maximal demands, which were usually not fullfillable. Also the personal level played an intriguingly large role, as it had done in England for a long time (once so well described by MACAULAY): Lots of MPs left their "party" (=parliamentary faction) just because of following a good friend.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 16, 2020 4:08:46 GMT
Merry old Hungary had interesting similarities and dissimilarities with England: Both were dominated by a gentry relying strongly on the shires sive comitati ("megyek"), "small republics" under a MonArchy. As a result of having defended their privilegues for centuries, they were good in politics, yet bad in policies (=ideologies): High practical skills, but a low level of theoretical reflection. Whereas the apolitical bourgeoisie in France and Germany came up with coherent ideologies and maximal demands, which were usually not fullfillable. Also the personal level played an intriguingly large role, as it had done in England for a long time (once so well described by MACAULAY): Lots of MPs left their "party" (=parliamentary faction) just because of following a good friend. I believe that until WWII Hungary shared with the UK the distinction of having an unwritten constitution with, as you suggest, strong degree of continuity with the Medieval/Early Modern constitutions. This contrasts with other Constitutions of the time that were post French Revolution innovations have Parliaments with little to no Institutional continuity with the pre revolutionary Diets (e.g. France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, Belgium, Imperial Germany, Denmark, Norway etc) This celebration of the historic constitution of Hungary has been linked to Hungarian nationalism since the latter half of the 19th Century and is a feature of the preamble of Orban's present constitution, which says "We honour the achievements of our historical constitution and we honour the Holy Crown, which embodies the constitutional continuity of Hungary’s statehood and the unity of the nation. We do not recognise the suspension of our historical constitution due to foreign occupations. We deny any statute of limitations for the inhuman crimes committed against the Hungarian nation and its citizens under the national socialist and the communist dictatorships. We do not recognise the communist constitution of 1949, since it was the basis for tyrannical rule; therefore we proclaim it to be invalid." And let us be honest, let us face it: "The parliaments in the modern states are feudalistic relicts, which will disappear." "The democratic parliaments aren't places of discussion - there the absolutism of the populace is dictating its will." "The democratically elected parliaments lose first their moral respectibility and then their political importance." (GOMEZ DAVILA) |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 16, 2020 4:56:44 GMT
p.scr.:
Those maps above might give a wrong impression: The electorate of TransLeithania was even 1910 not more than ~7% (so roughly the share of aristocrats, albeit they used a plutocratic census-system, what naturally excluded deprived aristos and included the wealthy german/jiddish-speaking bourgeoisie).
And it is clear, that the governing Liberal Party had only perhaps in 1875 a majority of the total population on its side. (The leadership of the Left Centre tried it with an open PartyConvention in the early 1870ies, but was overwhelmed by proDemocratic-, proKossuth-acclamations and never again gave innerparty-DemoCracy a chance ...)
By the way "Liberal Party": Despite all Hungarian philia for other aristocratically ruled countries (Poland, England, Prussia), the term/label "Conservatives" was absolutely toxic - the conservative magnates, who had defended Hungary's privilegues against the king before 1848/1860, were treated by the liberal/radical gentry as traitors of national independence, bought by Vienna and the Vatican. As a result TransL. was consisting of only - as a historian put it - "Liberals, more Liberals, most Liberals", i.e. Conservatives (StatusQuo-supporters satisfied with the Ausgleich of 1867, but - untypically for Tories - being quite anticlerical and adoring some scientific/technical/industrial "progress" [as it didn't harm them for a long time in a backwarded, rural country like H.]), (Left)Centrists, left/prodemocratic nationalists demanding full independence from Austria.
If You are surprised by the right tendency of BudaPest and other towns: The Magyars hadn't settled in them (less 1) before the late XIXth; instead the towns were for a long time filled by Jews&Germans, who were as a helpless minority very supportive of the regime, only after 1900 the urban "classes" began to move away from the Liberals.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2020 8:08:00 GMT
p.scr.: Those maps above might give a wrong impression: The electorate of TransLeithania was even 1910 not more than ~7% (so roughly the share of aristocrats, albeit they used a plutocratic census-system, what naturally excluded deprived aristos and included the wealthy german/jiddish-speaking bourgeoisie). And it is clear, that the governing Liberal Party had only perhaps in 1875 a majority of the total population on its side. (The leadership of the Left Centre tried it with an open PartyConvention in the early 1870ies, but was overwhelmed by proDemocratic-, proKossuth-acclamations and never again gave innerparty-DemoCracy a chance ...) By the way "Liberal Party": Despite all Hungarian philia for other aristocratically ruled countries (Poland, England, Prussia), the term/label "Conservatives" was absolutely toxic - the conservative magnates, who had defended Hungary's privilegues against the king before 1848/1860, were treated by the liberal/radical gentry as traitors of national independence, bought by Vienna and the Vatican. As a result TransL. was consisting of only - as a historian put it - "Liberals, more Liberals, most Liberals", i.e. Conservatives (StatusQuo-supporters satisfied with the Ausgleich of 1867, but - untypically for Tories - being quite anticlerical and adoring some scientific/technical/industrial "progress" [as it didn't harm them for a long time in a backwarded, rural country like H.]), (Left)Centrists, left/prodemocratic nationalists demanding full independence from Austria. If You are surprised by the right tendency of BudaPest and other towns: The Magyars hadn't settled in them (less 1) before the late XIXth; instead the towns were for a long time filled by Jews&Germans, who were as a helpless minority very supportive of the regime, only after 1900 the urban "classes" began to move away from the Liberals. To paraphrase Mr Spock from "Star Trek", this was "liberalism, but not as we know it". The political class in Hungary was nationalist, first and foremost. They wanted Hungary to be a modern nation state, and their templates for that were the relatively homogenous countries of western Europe. However, Hungary was a multi-national society in which Hungarians were only barely a majority. There seems to have been a view that, given enough time and repression, the national minorities (Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs and Croats, Ruthenes, Germans, Slovenes, Jews) could be turned into Hungarians. The policy had some success - the Jews largely adopted Hungarian speech and identity, as did many of the Germans, as well as some of the wealthier and more urban elements of the other nationalities. However, the price was the profound alienation of all the others. The policy of "Magyarisation", and the outward appearance of Hungary as a western-style national state, could only be maintained by having a Parliament elected using multiple layers of vote-rigging. As Georg says, the country had the most restrictive franchise in Europe (which remained unchanged until after WW1). Also, voting was public and bribery was rampant. Constituencies were gerrymandered against the opposition. There was a de-facto one-party state in which there was panic if explicitly opposition forces won more than 30 seats out of 400+. The period of the Ausgleich (1867-1918) had great achievements, but Hungarian constitutionalism was an artificial construct supported by cognitive dissonance. Following the defeat of WW1 it was unsustainable, but the shrunken Hungarian rump-state did not make a completely fresh start even then. Many of the bad old habits resurfaced under the Horthy-rendszer. |
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