EDL Defections - WTF !!!!

[Deleted]

As Dick Gaughan said,
Jack Glass fought the Devil, Looks like the Devil won.

[erlend]

Oct 9, 2013 20:35:57 GMT finsobruce said:

Oct 9, 2013 20:23:01 GMT erlend said:

That's quite a good analogy. For those who don't remember just think of a less thoughtful version of Ian Paisley.

I think that's being a bit unfair to Ian Paisley....

Fair comment.

[Merseymike]

Oct 9, 2013 20:08:47 GMT @jimboo said:

One of the main problems for some on the Left is the failure to recognise that Islamism is a political movement and reactionary in nature. There are those who fear that their Islamic beliefs are being hi-jacked and that Islam is entering a Dark Age as the Christian Religion did. Whenever I see a radical Cleric images of Pastor Jack Glass are invoked.

Not a problem for me - I'm very much a secularist and would separate religion entirely from the public sphere. All religion.

[erlend]

So would you ban people belonging to religions from public office? I suspect not. In which case they can push their views even if no reference is made to religion. Did anyone ever doubt that Blair was a quasi catholic?

[The Bishop]

Oct 10, 2013 11:17:35 GMT erlend said:

Did anyone ever doubt that Blair was a quasi catholic?

I don't think anybody was unaware that he was a god botherer of some description, no. We had to wait for 9/11 before it became an issue to all but a tiny minority, though.

[erlend]

But I think a CofE god botherer would probably have worried the Labour mainstream less.

There was a point when someone said that 2 of the 3 main party leaders were catholic (IDS and Kennedy) and the third might as well be. Don't remember who said it.

[Sibboleth]

I don't think the actual Labour mainstream were ever at all worried about his crypto-Catholicism.

[mboy]

For all of Blair's many faults, his crypto religion was not a major problem IMO. Campbell had it right that they didn't "do" religion.

[erlend]

Campbell didn't. But it I think affected Blair's own position in informal ways. Being an evangelicalish bloke made him get on better with George W.

[Merseymike]

Oct 10, 2013 11:17:35 GMT erlend said:

So would you ban people belonging to religions from public office? I suspect not. In which case they can push their views even if no reference is made to religion. Did anyone ever doubt that Blair was a quasi catholic?

Which they are almost inevitably going to do, but at least that can then be pointed out. Though the Catholic Church weren't exactly happy with Blair's stance which on social issues is liberal - so all the gay rights legislation, and no attempt to restrict abortion.

There are Catholics who believe things for themselves - Cherie Blair has said she doesn't personally believe in abortion for her, but she wouldn't want to make it illegal for other women - but believe that the Church view should not be imposed.

If we create a climate where it is not acceptable to try and do this, I think it would be healthier.

[Merseymike]

Oct 11, 2013 10:10:30 GMT erlend said:

Campbell didn't. But it I think affected Blair's own position in informal ways. Being an evangelicalish bloke made him get on better with George W.

He isn't an Evangelical at all - he was a high church Anglican, which is Catholic in any case, and then became a Catholic, but both he and Cherie are clearly liberal Catholics

[erlend]

I probably misused the term evangelical. He is not on the evangelical wing of religion, but he is quite in your face about where he stands on religion. Which Dubya would have liked.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Religious guilt is a funny thing.  I was christened and went to a CofE primary, but neither my family nor I are believers- and yet when I was told about the radical Unitarian church in Newington Green, my first reactions was not "bloody Trots", but "bloody non-conformists!"

[Deleted]

Oct 11, 2013 21:26:46 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

and yet when I was told about the radical Unitarian church in Newington Green, my first reactions was not "bloody Trots", but "bloody non-conformists!"

Ah, the Rev Dr Andy Pakula's congregation. He's caused a bit of a stir in the domination -- not because he's openly an atheist -- but because his congregation has grown so dramatically over the past couple of years that some of my co-religionists find it suspiciously not Unitarian.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Oct 11, 2013 21:51:30 GMT @benjamin said:

Oct 11, 2013 21:26:46 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

and yet when I was told about the radical Unitarian church in Newington Green, my first reactions was not "bloody Trots", but "bloody non-conformists!"

Ah, the Rev Dr Andy Pakula's congregation. He's caused a bit of a stir in the domination -- not because he's openly an atheist -- but because his congregation has grown so dramatically over the past couple of years that some of my co-religionists find it suspiciously not Unitarian.

I'm fascinated by what I've heard, it sounds quite odd- would you mind explaining a bit about your understanding of what's gone and how they differ from the Unitarian mainstream?

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2013 10:56:27 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

I'm fascinated by what I've heard, it sounds quite odd- would you mind explaining a bit about your understanding of what's gone and how they differ from the Unitarian mainstream?

It differs from the Unitarian mainstream because it's not a congregation of around 20 mostly elderly intellectuals discussing James Martineau and singing Forward through the Ages. For many Unitarians, the only genuinely Unitarian trajectory is one of inevitable decline, so anything that goes against this must necessarily be inauthentic.

Okay, I'm being unfair. There isn't really a Unitarian mainstream, because it's up to individual congregations to determine what they do as long as they don't deviate too wildly from a few general principles. Some are virtually indistinguishable from liberal Presbyterian/Methodist congregations, some are effectively Humanist whilst others are more eclectic if not borderline Neopagan -- though not everybody in the denomination really accepts this diversity. But with a few exceptions, there are general tends of ageing, dwindling numbers and quietness. Andy has managed in just a few years to transform a moribund congregation much like that described above into a very vibrant affair with hundreds of members, most of whom are young -- and much of the rest of the movement is at a loss as to quite how this has happened. There's nothing 'theological' that would place them outwith Unitarianism from my perspective, but I'd say that they're quite apart culturally. Plus, Andy is deliberately controversial in a way that most Unitarian ministers are not.

[Crimson King]

slighlty on topic. Cold drizzle here in the Jewel to welcome the EDL. Off to see "Priscilla" at the Alhambra. hoping for a (cold and) damp sqib from them