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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 11:13:21 GMT
MMP might even win over Carlton!
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Post by John Chanin on Sept 4, 2018 12:50:15 GMT
MMP might even win over Carlton! Don't be ridiculous. carlton43 is still regretting the 1832 Reform Act.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 4, 2018 13:10:53 GMT
MMP might even win over Carlton! Don't be ridiculous. carlton43 is still regretting the 1832 Reform Act. No! I am over that now. I was quite unaware of MMB and have looked it up. Of the various systems involving at least an element of proportionality it is up at the top of 'the least worst'. I am wedded to FPTP and single member constituencies with the concomitant strong support for the two major parties and in-built difficulty for smaller and especially new parties. I actively like all of that. I am quite unpersuaded that there is any unfairness at all in the present system. I actively oppose all types of PR. My preference pivots around smallish single member constituencies electing by FPTP and liking the fact that usually one of two parties win most such seats. I like straight fights and prefer few candidates everywhere. I contend that a party not standing in most constituencies is not a serious national party and has no business being in the HOC. I don't like and tend to despise special interest or regional parties. I am quite unmoved by claims that massing a large national vote but failing to win any or only a few seats in the HOC is in any way unfair. If a party can only gain a series of second places and a wealth of modest third places it deserves the nothing that it wins. Try harder to win a lot of seats or give up. Do not whinge and seek to alter the rules of the game to make room for earnest second and third raters. Win seats or shut up.
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Post by therealriga on Sept 4, 2018 15:53:56 GMT
I'll be honest, when I read his comment, my first thought was (as I presume yours was) that MMP is bad in this specific respect, because it requires bigger constituencies which are perhaps less likely to resemble coherent communities. Angela Merkel's Stralsund–Nordvorpommern–Rügen constituency springs to mind - it can kind of be conferred from the name that the boundaries are perhaps rather arbitrary. On the contrary, it seemed a compact and generally coherent constituency. Different boundary commission, different ways of doing things. Having a permitted deviation of 15% for constituencies with an average population of 275,000 definitely gives you more wriggle room when it comes to creating coherent districts. The clunkier names are an unrelated issue. The UK boundary commission, despite Inverness-style monstrosities, would have had it shorter. (Nordvorpommern would probably have covered it.) The German boundary commission generally doesn't seem too bothered about keeping it concise and will often namecheck every local government area, even if they only make up a small part of it, resulting in some really clunky mouthfuls. " Brandenburg an der Havel – Potsdam-Mittelmark I – Havelland III – Teltow-Fläming I" is probably the most infamous example, but there are others (" Suhl – Schmalkalden-Meiningen – Hildburghausen – Sonneberg" take a bow.)
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Post by therealriga on Sept 4, 2018 15:59:35 GMT
Can someone with local knowledge tell me what the issue is with including Skye with the Western Isles? It would boost the electorate of the latter by 8,000. Obviously they are different communities, but surely the remote insular nature does provide some common concerns and is it so different to the Orkney & Shetland case? (I plead total ignorance here before some of you get pitchforks out!) I notice from past reviews linked on their site that the Scottish Boundary Commission has suggested it twice in provisional recommendations only for it to be thrown out during discussions. We are into the habitual, the clannish and the traditional here. From where I type this I can see over the tip of Rona, the Trotternish east end of Skye, and on a clear day as it is indeed today, the misty south west of Harris in the WI. There are religious differences (RC, CofS and Presbyterian) and clan differences in all of these communities, but each is tending to diminish with time and with the considerable dilution of outsiders moving in. My community on the mainland was predominantly Highlander when I first knew it in the early 60s and is now two-thirds outsider. Skye has gone quite a way towards that, but Harris-Lewis far less. So that is the divide. I think Skye is a good fit to Ross-shire to which it is connected through Lochaber by the Skye bridge. It has a ferry connection to Harris which is a bit further away than the mainland. I don't think it would be hugely contentious to link Skye with WI but I have not asked and don't know. These are independent minded people who think about personality and politics more than the average electorate. They can be picky, truculent and stubborn,so it would need to be handled sensitively and with great tact. Thanks for the explanation and I've heard before that Skye has better connections to the mainland than the outer isles but with strict(er) equality of electorates now the in-thing I'm surprised they haven't pushed for that. It would bring the electorate of Western Isles from 30% of the average up to 42%.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 16:02:45 GMT
I want to work for the German boundary commission
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Post by greenchristian on Sept 4, 2018 16:05:34 GMT
I want to work for the German boundary commission You'd have to move to Germany...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 16:07:37 GMT
I want to work for the German boundary commission You'd have to move to Germany... ...well maybe in my next life I will!
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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 4, 2018 16:13:10 GMT
The German system is very interesting because a lot of PR advocates, at least of my acquaintance, used to be very keen on it and strongly urged its adoption in the UK. The traditional German system was fairly strange (though the current exploding size is due to - in itself quite reasonable - supreme court meddling and the CDU absolutely refusing to hear of the obvious practical-yet-constitutional fix, due to reasons of their internal regional balance) and there are reasons why it remains unique. The direct vote is basically a joke, always was (more so in the old days when CDU and SPD both got list seats everywhere as well.)
But it would be very easy to have county-wise PR (with special rules for splitting London and suchlike), have very clearly defined, smallish PR constituencies that everybody recognizes. You could even combine that with an element of personal preference voting.
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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 4, 2018 16:18:11 GMT
I'll be honest, when I read his comment, my first thought was (as I presume yours was) that MMP is bad in this specific respect, because it requires bigger constituencies which are perhaps less likely to resemble coherent communities. Angela Merkel's Stralsund–Nordvorpommern–Rügen constituency springs to mind - it can kind of be conferred from the name that the boundaries are perhaps rather arbitrary. On the contrary, it seemed a compact and generally coherent constituency. Different boundary commission, different ways of doing things. Having a permitted deviation of 15% for constituencies with an average population of 275,000 definitely gives you more wriggle room when it comes to creating coherent districts. The clunkier names are an unrelated issue. The UK boundary commission, despite Inverness-style monstrosities, would have had it shorter. (Nordvorpommern would probably have covered it.) The German boundary commission generally doesn't seem too bothered about keeping it concise and will often namecheck every local government area, even if they only make up a small part of it, resulting in some really clunky mouthfuls. " Brandenburg an der Havel – Potsdam-Mittelmark I – Havelland III – Teltow-Fläming I" is probably the most infamous example, but there are others (" Suhl – Schmalkalden-Meiningen – Hildburghausen – Sonneberg" take a bow.)
The Bundestag's standing boundary commission, strange as it may seem, draws seats but doesn't actually name them. That's state governments' job - and they have different naming policies. Most now namecheck every district. In the West, you may have some traditional constituency names that don't conform to that pattern, while newer ones do - which of course, people on this forum would recognize.
As to Merkel's constituency, it has always been quite logical, consisting of Rügen, Stralsund town, and a slowly expanding slice of Stralsund's hinterland. Administrative reforms have caused renamings twice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 16:32:24 GMT
Different rules and regs with potentially acres of small print to trawl through? I really want to work for the German boundary commission.
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 4, 2018 21:00:02 GMT
MMP might even win over Carlton! Don't be ridiculous. carlton43 is still regretting the 1832 Reform Act. and possibly Magna Carta...
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Post by greenchristian on Sept 4, 2018 21:30:56 GMT
Don't be ridiculous. carlton43 is still regretting the 1832 Reform Act. and possibly Magna Carta... And either the Romans leaving or the Romans arriving. Or both.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 4, 2018 22:31:36 GMT
Don't be ridiculous. carlton43 is still regretting the 1832 Reform Act. and possibly Magna Carta... Now you are being silly! Of course I was opposed to Magna Carta and told him so at the time, but he was in a blue funk and impossible to argue with. Any big baggy document like that was sure to be a damaging hostage to fortune loathed by all administrations ever after, and looked to in a pathetic hope that it means and implies far more than it actually does by all the usual suspects. There it is. We are saddled with the damn thing and it has iconic power like the NHS. And greenchristian of course I was bitterly opposed to the arrival of the Romans and engaged in open action against them until they were clearly in charge. From that moment I became more and more Romanized and was heart-broken when they pulled out. I re-located to Gaul and then to Rome.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 5, 2018 10:13:58 GMT
The German system is very interesting because a lot of PR advocates, at least of my acquaintance, used to be very keen on it and strongly urged its adoption in the UK. But in recent times, it has developed some serious problems at levels both technical (resulting in the exploding Bundestag) and political (meaning that the only viable Government appears to be a grand coalition that is gradually losing public support). If current trends continue, the Germans are heading for some serious problems and I'm not sure what, given the political and constitutional constraints, it's possible for them to do about it Well one thing would surely be to accept the idea that minority governments might be a legitimate thing. I know about Weimar and all that, but still.
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Eastwood
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Post by Eastwood on Sept 5, 2018 14:15:38 GMT
Can someone with local knowledge tell me what the issue is with including Skye with the Western Isles? It would boost the electorate of the latter by 8,000. Obviously they are different communities, but surely the remote insular nature does provide some common concerns and is it so different to the Orkney & Shetland case? (I plead total ignorance here before some of you get pitchforks out!) I notice from past reviews linked on their site that the Scottish Boundary Commission has suggested it twice in provisional recommendations only for it to be thrown out during discussions. Carlton sets out the philosophical difficulties well. An alternative way to approach the question is to ask why was Comhairle nan Eilean Siar ever created in the first place? In many ways there are bigger religious, cultural and philosophical divides within the Western Isles than between the Isles and the mainland. Harris and the Uists were part of Inverness-shire until 1975 while Lewis was part of Ross and Cromarty. The cultural divide between a Hearach and a Leòdhasach is cultural (Harris folk are quite different in outlook), but they have a shared presbyterianism. In contrast the southern isles of Barra and South Uist have much in common with Harris culturally but religiously are strongly Catholic with Benbecula and North Uist more mixed. The southern isles were traditionally more dependent on fishing while in Lewis and Harris Crofting and Weaving were more significant. There is also a strong identification with the mainland ports to which an area has traditionally been linked. Barra for example identifies with Oban, whereas South Uist has a preference for Mallaig. For the period 2001 - 2013 Lochboisdale in South Uist was forced to have all sailings to Oban not Mallaig and this indignity was a political issue for Calmac who were thought to be favouring Barra's interests by maintaining the Oban link at the expense of Mallaig. Equally, North Uist and Harris look to Skye for their links while Lewis looks to Ullapool although traditionally (pre 1972) it was Lochalsh that provided the Steamer port for Stornoway. So the creation of Outer Hebrides / Na h-Eileanan an Iar brought together a group of islands with diverse cultural, religious and political outlooks with links to different parts of the mainland. The two common threads of Hebridean identity were therefore the Gaelic language and the isolation of the long ferry journeys to the mainland. These two things were common to the experience of all from Butt to Barra. Even when I first visited the islands in the 1990s it was not possible to travel from Harris to Uist or Uist to Barra directly as the transport links were all across the Minch rather than inter island. The point of this being that an MP who represents the Outer Isles is really representing those cultural interests of Gaelic and the isolating nature of long ferry journeys. So to join another part of Scotland to Na h-Eileanan an Iar would really need that area to have those common interests. Skye does of course have some strong Gaelic roots. Sabhal Mòr Ostaig in Sleat and the new Gaelic school in Portree for example. Equally however Skye has a large "white settler" population and has quite a different cultural outlook to Stornoway. The percentage of Gaelic speakers in Skye is less than a third and rather less than that probably use it frequently, a marked contrast to the outer isles. Equally Skye is well connected to the mainland by the Skye Bridge these days and there are shared connections of health boards, school catchments etc across Loch Alsh mean that Skye is much less isolated than the Outer Isles and has much more in common with rural areas of the mainland than it does with the Outer Hebrides. So what does that mean in terms of a Minch banks seat? It has logic to it and is probably the least worst option if you wanted to equalise population. But fundamentally there are different issues in representing Na h-Eileanan an Iar that would make representing Skye properly more challenging.
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obsie
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Post by obsie on Sept 5, 2018 15:49:26 GMT
Can someone with local knowledge tell me what the issue is with including Skye with the Western Isles? It would boost the electorate of the latter by 8,000. Obviously they are different communities, but surely the remote insular nature does provide some common concerns and is it so different to the Orkney & Shetland case? (I plead total ignorance here before some of you get pitchforks out!) I notice from past reviews linked on their site that the Scottish Boundary Commission has suggested it twice in provisional recommendations only for it to be thrown out during discussions. Carlton sets out the philosophical difficulties well. An alternative way to approach the question is to ask why was Comhairle nan Eilean Siar ever created in the first place? In many ways there are bigger religious, cultural and philosophical divides within the Western Isles than between the Isles and the mainland. Harris and the Uists were part of Inverness-shire until 1975 while Lewis was part of Ross and Cromarty. The cultural divide between a Hearach and a Leòdhasach is cultural (Harris folk are quite different in outlook) Could you elaborate, please? (Just curious.)
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Khunanup
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Post by Khunanup on Sept 5, 2018 16:35:07 GMT
They have a choice of one constituency that's 40% over quota or two constituencies that are both 30% under quota. I don't really know which is the best option. Join it to Hampshire and stop being silly is the answer. No thanks...
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 5, 2018 17:54:56 GMT
Carlton sets out the philosophical difficulties well. An alternative way to approach the question is to ask why was Comhairle nan Eilean Siar ever created in the first place? In many ways there are bigger religious, cultural and philosophical divides within the Western Isles than between the Isles and the mainland. Harris and the Uists were part of Inverness-shire until 1975 while Lewis was part of Ross and Cromarty. The cultural divide between a Hearach and a Leòdhasach is cultural (Harris folk are quite different in outlook) Could you elaborate, please? (Just curious.) I'm guessing it's a reference to the southern islands holding to the old faith whereas the northern islands are (were?) fiercely protestant.
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obsie
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Post by obsie on Sept 5, 2018 19:11:29 GMT
Could you elaborate, please? (Just curious.) I'm guessing it's a reference to the southern islands holding to the old faith whereas the northern islands are (were?) fiercely protestant. That's true but what I'm curious about is the cultural difference between Leodhais and Na Hearadh both of which are fiercely Protestant AIUI.
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