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Post by Andrew_S on Jan 7, 2021 18:28:20 GMT
You thought it would be a nailed on Lab hold? LibDems handed it to the Tories, blatantly and deliberately. And the outgoing MP was brazenly libelled by them. More likely they honestly believed they could win the seat, which everyone else could have told them was almost impossible given the demographics of the constituency.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 7, 2021 19:16:24 GMT
What was objected to was Labour sending reinforcements there on the day to try and ensure that their defector lost, rather than so that they could win. They did the same in Cities. This claim is utter bollocks. It is a Trumpian lie.
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bsjmcr
Non-Aligned
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Post by bsjmcr on Jan 7, 2021 19:21:28 GMT
I really don't fathom the Bishop's bizarre obsession with this result. Of all the seats Labour lost in December 2019 - Bolsover, Burnley, Blyth, Rother Valley, Leigh, Wrexham, Redcar - the one that keeps him up at night is Kensington?? a seat that has only once elected a Labour MP (and that was a total fluke largely facilitated by Conservatives defecting to the Lib Dems). The sense of entitlement attached to this constituency is truly baffling The Lib Dems can be as bad - look how many thought they were somehow entitled to a free run in Finchley & Golders Green and that Labour campaigning heavily in a borough where all three seats were ultra marginal Conservative-Labour contests (even in 2017 post the Chakrabarti report) and where both the council and London Assembly seat have been strongly fought between the two major parties for years was just deliberately targetting someone starting from a barely-saving-their-deposit position out of spite. Imagine how much money they'd save if they didn't run in many marginal Con-Lab seats where they still didn't get 5%? Of course I assume in the seats you mention where they had more spirited campaigns the expenditure on leaflets must have exceeded the £500 they would get back in return for actually campaigning for a couple of thousand votes. Their raison d'être seems to have evaporated with the effects of Brexit still not yet materialising enough for them to become the Rejoin party, and Starmer being a more stomachable leader, and unlike in '97 where yes they were successful against another centrist leader and a loose alliance, the effects of 2015 still remain just by virtue of having such a small base left, though I recognise they are in (a distant) second place in quite a few more places than 2017.
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 19:25:56 GMT
What was objected to was Labour sending reinforcements there on the day to try and ensure that their defector lost, rather than so that they could win. They did the same in Cities. This claim is utter bollocks. It is a Trumpian lie. It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. I’m sure they were ‘fighting to win’ but the only realistic thing they were doing was playing spoiler. Or else your data was unusable.
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Jan 7, 2021 19:28:16 GMT
Controversial opinion but despite their delusions towards the end of their tenure I really wish Chuka Umuna and Chris Leslie just suffered bravely for a few more months and I bet they would have shadow cabinet positions by now. Presentable and well spoken, and though Leslie must have been a poor constituency MP as his result suggests (and having heard a lecture from him in Nottingham with Kenneth Clarke, it was the latter who stayed behind to chat to students...), he was spot on in 2017 post Corbyn's 'win' saying 'we didn't actually win'. Probably the only one to have said so, and he was slated for telling the truth. He is northern and tells it like it is (though arguably losing in his hometown in 2005 was also pretty poor show) and would have been a good fit I would have thought for rebuilding the party.
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Izzyeviel
Lib Dem
I stayed up for Hartlepools
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Post by Izzyeviel on Jan 7, 2021 19:31:57 GMT
If there were a hall of fame for stupidity, the people running the Lib Dem 2019 GE campaign ought to be permanent fixtures. Absolute idiots.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 7, 2021 19:34:04 GMT
The lie is the claim that Labour targeted FGG and Two Cities as a pure spoiler, because of the identity of the Lib Dem candidate. That is total bollocks because:
1) Labour put Two Cities on the target list at a time when the man who eventually became the Liberal Democrat candidate was still a Labour MP. The Lib Dems selected someone else originally.
2) Labour has entrenched strength in both seats which will not vote Lib Dem. Both were on the target list on merit.
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 19:43:29 GMT
The lie is the claim that Labour targeted FGG and Two Cities as a pure spoiler, because of the identity of the Lib Dem candidate. That is total bollocks because: 1) Labour put Two Cities on the target list at a time when the man who eventually became the Liberal Democrat candidate was still a Labour MP. The Lib Dems selected someone else originally. 2) Labour has entrenched strength in both seats which will not vote Lib Dem. Both were on the target list on merit. As I clearly said in my opening post, I wasn't talking about originally targetting the seats. I was talking about sending activists to them on election day. Target lists change all the time, and there is no way that anyone could have thought Finchley, or to a lesser extent Cities, remotely winnable for Labour by then.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 7, 2021 19:45:13 GMT
A target seat is a target seat. It gets campaign support.
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Post by timrollpickering on Jan 7, 2021 19:45:33 GMT
This claim is utter bollocks. It is a Trumpian lie. It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. Who canvasses on polling day?!
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 19:48:02 GMT
A target seat is a target seat. It gets campaign support. And the Labour Party never edits its target list from day 1 of the election campaign? You continue to send activists to no hope seats on election day just for fun?
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 19:48:25 GMT
It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. Who canvasses on polling day?! Knocking up, same difference.
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greenhert
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Post by greenhert on Jan 7, 2021 20:10:48 GMT
This claim is utter bollocks. It is a Trumpian lie. It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. I’m sure they were ‘fighting to win’ but the only realistic thing they were doing was playing spoiler. Or else your data was unusable. The Conservative vote fell as well in Kensington (by 3.9%); the only other two Conservative gains from Labour where the Conservative vote share fell were Ashfield (where the Ashfield Independents ran a strong enough campaign to push Labour into third place in a seat they had held in 2017) and Peterborough. Arguably you could also claim that the Brexit Party, which cost Labour several of their Red Wall seats, cost Labour Kensington as well even though the Brexit Party candidate, Jay Aston, polled a derisory 384 votes in Kensington.
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Post by timrollpickering on Jan 7, 2021 20:15:46 GMT
Who canvasses on polling day?! Knocking up, same difference. Were you part of the 2019 Lib Dem election campaign team?
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 7, 2021 20:52:28 GMT
Controversial opinion but despite their delusions towards the end of their tenure I really wish Chuka Umuna and Chris Leslie just suffered bravely for a few more months and I bet they would have shadow cabinet positions by now. Presentable and well spoken, and though Leslie must have been a poor constituency MP as his result suggests (and having heard a lecture from him in Nottingham with Kenneth Clarke, it was the latter who stayed behind to chat to students...), he was spot on in 2017 post Corbyn's 'win' saying 'we didn't actually win'. Probably the only one to have said so, and he was slated for telling the truth. He is northern and tells it like it is (though arguably losing in his hometown in 2005 was also pretty poor show) and would have been a good fit I would have thought for rebuilding the party. Both were likely to be deselected. Chris Leslie almost definitely. That's possibly why they took the chance and left Labour.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jan 7, 2021 20:53:41 GMT
A target seat is a target seat. It gets campaign support. And the Labour Party never edits its target list from day 1 of the election campaign? You continue to send activists to no hope seats on election day just for fun? The result proves it wasn't a no-hope seat.
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greenhert
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Post by greenhert on Jan 7, 2021 20:53:56 GMT
Seats Labour won in 1997 which had never before been Labour at general election time (counting close predecessors but excluding new seats created for that year): Birmingham Edgbaston, Blackpool North & Fleetwood, Brighton Pavilion, Bristol West, City of Chester, Crosby, Edinburgh Pentlands, Enfield Southgate, Finchley & Golders Green, Harrow West, Harwich, Leeds North West, Leeds North East, Morecambe & Lunesdale, Shrewsbury & Atcham, South Thanet, Warwick & Leamington, Wirral West.
Seats the Conservatives won in 2019 which had never before been Conservative at general election time, or had not been Conservative since before 1918 (counting close predecessors): Ashfield, Bolsover, Blyth Valley, Burnley, Don Valley, Leigh, Rother Valley, Workington, Wrexham.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 7, 2021 20:58:10 GMT
This claim is utter bollocks. It is a Trumpian lie. It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. I’m sure they were ‘fighting to win’ but the only realistic thing they were doing was playing spoiler. Or else your data was unusable. What you need to recognise is that many local activists will work in their local seat on the day simply because it's their local seat. Even if it's not a likely win.
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 20:59:06 GMT
And the Labour Party never edits its target list from day 1 of the election campaign? You continue to send activists to no hope seats on election day just for fun? The result proves it wasn't a no-hope seat. Labour finished 12.5% behind in Cities and 20% behind in Finchley ....
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Jan 7, 2021 20:59:35 GMT
It is absolutely true that Labour canvassers were there on the day. I’m sure they were ‘fighting to win’ but the only realistic thing they were doing was playing spoiler. Or else your data was unusable. What you need to recognise is that many local activists will work in their local seat on the day simply because it's their local seat. Even if it's not a likely win. Of course, and that happens in every party - but that’s not what happened here. We’re talking about where activists were directed to.
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