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Post by Strontium Dog on Aug 21, 2024 16:24:01 GMT
2 million Muslims live happily in Israel, where they serve in the Knesset, the judiciary, the police, the armed forces, and have even captained the national football team.
The Palestinians were given refuge in Jordan, and tried to overthrow the King of Jordan. They were given refuge in Lebanon, and sparked a civil war. They were given refuge in Kuwait, and supported Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.
So this is very much not a Jews and Muslims thing. It is a Palestinians and anyone else thing.
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 21, 2024 16:48:33 GMT
As you say, Muslims live in Israel. You might call them Arabs. They are not called Palestinians, either by themselves, Israelis or Palestinians. If Israel ceased to be, these Arabs would come high on the list Palestinians have of traitors to be dealt with, which is in part why they both keep their heads down and also serve as volunteers in the IDF.
Bedouins, like travelling people the world over, expect to be persecuted by settled people, and in Israel, being treated as citizens with actual rights is a novelty they are happy to continue.
The truth is hard to come by because so many powerful people work so hard to obscure it. That and that fact that I speak neither Hebrew nor Arabic
But what is the incidence of cosanguinist marriage among Arab Israelis? Compared to the 30% of Gazan Palestinians? Are Israeli Arabs following the pattern of Israeli Jews and accepting with a degree of disppointment homosexuality where it occurs among their children? What % of Israeli Arab girls go onto further education? Why are there no significant protests in Israel by Israeli Arabs?
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slon
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Post by slon on Aug 22, 2024 7:52:32 GMT
Back to alternative history and what might have been
Remember the Balfour declaration wasn't about enacting biblical prophecies, it was a rather cynical scheme to prevent mass immigration of Russian Jews to Western Europe and America (by diverting them to Palestine)
If exodus had happened as expected round about the end of WW1 I think the situation in Palestine might have worked out reasonably well with relative harmony between the Muslim and Jewish factions.
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 22, 2024 13:13:57 GMT
Back to alternative history and what might have been Remember the Balfour declaration wasn't about enacting biblical prophecies, it was a rather cynical scheme to prevent mass immigration of Russian Jews to Western Europe and America (by diverting them to Palestine) If exodus had happened as expected round about the end of WW1 I think the situation in Palestine might have worked out reasonably well with relative harmony between the Muslim and Jewish factions. where do you get this stuff? The purpose of the Balfour declaration was to impress politically influencial American Jews at a time when the UK was encouraging the USA to enter WWI on the our side, despite the fact that our side included the anti semitic Tsarist regime and the other side included Germany, which had a reputation for being an nice place for Jews to live their life as well as the Ottoman Empire who had responded favourably to if not out right facilitated the First and Second Aliyah |
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slon
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Post by slon on Aug 22, 2024 15:10:18 GMT
Back to alternative history and what might have been Remember the Balfour declaration wasn't about enacting biblical prophecies, it was a rather cynical scheme to prevent mass immigration of Russian Jews to Western Europe and America (by diverting them to Palestine) If exodus had happened as expected round about the end of WW1 I think the situation in Palestine might have worked out reasonably well with relative harmony between the Muslim and Jewish factions. where do you get this stuff? The purpose of the Balfour declaration was to impress politically influencial American Jews at a time when the UK was encouraging the USA to enter WWI on the our side, despite the fact that our side included the anti semitic Tsarist regime and the other side included Germany, which had a reputation for being an nice place for Jews to live their life as well as the Ottoman Empire who had responded favourably to if not out right facilitated the First and Second Aliyah The events which led to the declaration are complex and kicked off in the late 19th century In eastern Europe and particularly Russia. Jews of Eastern Europe were begining to migrate to the west, and as they migrated, they were confronted by racism and rising levels of antisemitism, Enter Theodor Herzl, he figured that the only means to liberate the Jewish people from rampant European antisemitism was to encourage the migration of all Jewish peoples to Palestine, so set about a plan to make this happen. The plan centred on the British empire and was sold in three ways: 1) to create a pan middle east pro British state controlling the route to India 2) to elicit support from Jewish community leaders in America and Russia to the side of the allies against Germany 3) to divert the westward migration of oppressed Jewish refugees The first would appeal to British colonial ambitions The second was highly speculative, influential American Jews were not interested in a Zionist state or European wars, Russian Jews were for the revolution and against the war I think the third was crucial, then as now immigration was a very hot political potato |
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slon
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Post by slon on Aug 24, 2024 13:02:31 GMT
Curiously it was the Dreyfus affair in 1894 which convinced Theodor Herzl of the plan which would turn into the Balfour declaration.
Even more curious is that the Dreyfus affair is still a controversial issue in French politics
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 5, 2024 14:51:06 GMT
A quick roundup of the argument.
First I have to say that I don't like the way the situation has panned out. I don't think it was ever intended by Balfour or anyone else that this would happen, they expected a single state with due respect and protection for all citizens of whatever religion or ethnicity.
So, why didn't this happen?
Ok, to begin with it was a bit of an ask. A European country decides to give a non European country to another nation to inhabit without even consulting the people who lived there ...... it was bound to cause friction.
But I think the main problem was the timing and the fact that the bulk of the immigrants when they arrived ten years later than expected were not Russian Jewish peasant class who may well have things in common with the Arab population. The Jewish immigrants when they arrived in numbers were educated city dwellers who might as well have come from a different planet to the indigenous population.
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 7, 2024 14:43:47 GMT
2 million Muslims live happily in Israel, where they serve in the Knesset, the judiciary, the police, the armed forces, and have even captained the national football team. The Palestinians were given refuge in Jordan, and tried to overthrow the King of Jordan. They were given refuge in Lebanon, and sparked a civil war. They were given refuge in Kuwait, and supported Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. So this is very much not a Jews and Muslims thing. It is a Palestinians and anyone else thing. The term "Palestinian" is not an ethnic term, one of many reasons why the charge of genocide is idiotic. The term "Palestinian" is a political term, it refers to those Arabs who reject any peaceful accomodation with ...actually pretty much anyone. The various people who want to kill off the Palestinians include Jews, Druze, Bedouin, Jordanians, Egyptians, Tunisians and Arab Christians. And probably many of their wives. |
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slon
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Post by slon on Sept 8, 2024 14:54:34 GMT
2 million Muslims live happily in Israel, where they serve in the Knesset, the judiciary, the police, the armed forces, and have even captained the national football team. The Palestinians were given refuge in Jordan, and tried to overthrow the King of Jordan. They were given refuge in Lebanon, and sparked a civil war. They were given refuge in Kuwait, and supported Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. So this is very much not a Jews and Muslims thing. It is a Palestinians and anyone else thing. The term "Palestinian" is not an ethnic term, one of many reasons why the charge of genocide is idiotic. The term "Palestinian" is a political term, it refers to those Arabs who reject any peaceful accomodation with ...actually pretty much anyone. The various people who want to kill off the Palestinians include Jews, Druze, Bedouin, Jordanians, Egyptians, Tunisians and Arab Christians. And probably many of their wives. Afraid you are still trapped in the present so unable to see what might have been |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 8, 2024 19:33:48 GMT
Afraid you are still trapped in the present so unable to see what might have been <chortle>. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Sept 18, 2024 22:17:52 GMT
Remarkable historic footage of Gaddafi needling Arab leaders: "Why wasn't a Palestinian state created in the 20 years between 1948 and 1967?"
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slon
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Post by slon on Oct 18, 2024 17:27:20 GMT
A quick roundup of the argument. First I have to say that I don't like the way the situation has panned out. I don't think it was ever intended by Balfour or anyone else that this would happen, they expected a single state with due respect and protection for all citizens of whatever religion or ethnicity. So, why didn't this happen? Ok, to begin with it was a bit of an ask. A European country decides to give a non European country to another nation to inhabit without even consulting the people who lived there ...... it was bound to cause friction. But I think the main problem was the timing and the fact that the bulk of the immigrants when they arrived ten years later than expected were not Russian Jewish peasant class who may well have things in common with the Arab population. The Jewish immigrants when they arrived in numbers were educated city dwellers who might as well have come from a different planet to the indigenous population. So let us go back to this point .... as no one has made any objection the this The friction began to exist between the new arrivals and the existing population Why did this problem arise, and what measures could have been taken at the time? |
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 20, 2024 7:25:31 GMT
A quick roundup of the argument. First I have to say that I don't like the way the situation has panned out. I don't think it was ever intended by Balfour or anyone else that this would happen, they expected a single state with due respect and protection for all citizens of whatever religion or ethnicity. So, why didn't this happen? Ok, to begin with it was a bit of an ask. A European country decides to give a non European country to another nation to inhabit without even consulting the people who lived there ...... it was bound to cause friction. But I think the main problem was the timing and the fact that the bulk of the immigrants when they arrived ten years later than expected were not Russian Jewish peasant class who may well have things in common with the Arab population. The Jewish immigrants when they arrived in numbers were educated city dwellers who might as well have come from a different planet to the indigenous population. So let us go back to this point .... as no one has made any objection the this The friction began to exist between the new arrivals and the existing population Why did this problem arise, and what measures could have been taken at the time? The friction between Jews and Arabs dates back to the Arab invasion in the 7th century. The arrival of Jewish immigrants from the late 19th century didn't create new tensions, they simply gave a reason to escalate and reignite tensions that had already been there. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 20, 2024 8:20:39 GMT
TBF the Jews had friction before that too, with the Christians (Jews sided with Persia during the war with Rome under Heraclius) and previously with pagan Rome and Greek empires.
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slon
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Post by slon on Oct 20, 2024 9:06:23 GMT
So let us go back to this point .... as no one has made any objection the this The friction began to exist between the new arrivals and the existing population Why did this problem arise, and what measures could have been taken at the time? The friction between Jews and Arabs dates back to the Arab invasion in the 7th century. The arrival of Jewish immigrants from the late 19th century didn't create new tensions, they simply gave a reason to escalate and reignite tensions that had already been there. I think there were new reasons for the problems. In the early 1920s the disputes were fairly minor and mainly about God bothers on both sides fighting about access to holy sites, this was fairly easily dealt with with cooperation from the vast majority of the population. In the 1930s the problems were about land ownership. Under the Ottoman system property was privately owned but most agricultural land was not, it was sort of common land access and use of which was controlled by the resident community. This changed with British rule which allowed land to be purchased as per British law. As with land enclosure acts in England hundreds of years earlier this worked in favour of more the educated and very much to the disadvantage of the poor and uneducated local communities. So, could this have been done differently, and could history have taken another course? |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 20, 2024 9:27:18 GMT
Yes, if we had engineered more laws to specifically hinder the Jews, history could have been different. But remember: every country in history has at some time engineered laws to hinder the Jews, and they still somehow keep surviving and succeeding. If you really want to stop them succeeding, you're just going to have to kill them all. Both the Nazis and the Islamists eventually realised this truth.
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slon
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Post by slon on Oct 27, 2024 15:30:17 GMT
It is also important to look at the background economic situation in Palestine at the end of Ottoman rule and the first years of British rule.
The Ottoman and then the Mandate authorities levied high taxes on farming and agricultural produce and during the 1920s and 1930s this together with a fall in prices, cheap imports, natural disasters and paltry harvests all contributed to the increasing indebtedness of the Arab peasant class. The rents paid by tenants increased sharply, owing to increased population density, and growing transfer of land from Arabs to the Jewish settlement agencies.
It was a double whammy, more and more of the pleasant class were forced off the land and into dire conditions in the few cities, and they were not happy about it. They blamed the British for the economic collapse and the (to them) unjust land ownership changes which allowed Jewish wealth funds to buy previously Palestinian land with very dubious legal checks on past ownership
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Post by Strontium Dog on Oct 27, 2024 16:37:33 GMT
This is Alternate Political History, not Alternate Facts.
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Post by uthacalthing on Oct 30, 2024 19:45:28 GMT
TBF the Jews had friction before that too, with the Christians (Jews sided with Persia during the war with Rome under Heraclius) and previously with pagan Rome and Greek empires. Such offense!!! To describe Rome and Greece as pagan. Of course what you mean is that there is sound historical precedent for dominant state religions not merely fading into irrelevance but actually becoming extinct |
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slon
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Post by slon on Oct 31, 2024 16:51:31 GMT
TBF the Jews had friction before that too, with the Christians (Jews sided with Persia during the war with Rome under Heraclius) and previously with pagan Rome and Greek empires. Such offense!!! To describe Rome and Greece as pagan. Of course what you mean is that there is sound historical precedent for dominant state religions not merely fading into irrelevance but actually becoming extinct Not really relevant to the situation which arose in the 1920s and became very problematic in the 1930s And the question is : could it have been avoided? |
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