graham
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Post by graham on Dec 22, 2023 12:24:19 GMT
I'm not convinced that a large number are militantly censorious of adultery in itself, after all many of them or those they know will not be "without sin" in this regard. What has really got up people's noses, and continues to do so, is hypocrisy - preaching morality in public but not observing it in private. This was what made the "Back To Basics" fallout so devastating for the Tories three decades ago. Indeed, it's damn near mandatory if you want to stand for election in France, for example  In a supposedly Catholic country like France , it immediately exposes such people as hypocrites. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 22, 2023 12:27:20 GMT
I'm not convinced that a large number are militantly censorious of adultery in itself, after all many of them or those they know will not be "without sin" in this regard. What has really got up people's noses, and continues to do so, is hypocrisy - preaching morality in public but not observing it in private. This was what made the "Back To Basics" fallout so devastating for the Tories three decades ago. The “Back to Basics” campaign was bad because itmwas interpreted by different people to mean different things. John Major launched it as being basic Conservative and capitalist principles and responsibility, but other people (and the media) jumped on the bandwagon by saying that it was about personal sexual morality and homophobia as well.I've often thought the Tory Press is a two-edged sword for the Conservative Party. Major was making a philosophical point; the likes of the News Of The World, for whom sex scandals and metaphorical queer-bashing were their stock-in-trade, were simply incapable of understanding that. A few backbench MPs were equally dumb, and between them they set up an open goal for Labour under a shiny new leader. (As it happens, I didn't think much of Major's philosophical point - if he'd fleshed it out with a bit more intellectual heft and practical policy then the confusion might not have arisen.) |
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 22, 2023 12:40:35 GMT
I am not even giving the assertion that the public (or more than 1% of 1% of 1%) finds unmarried parenthood offensive one seconds credence.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 22, 2023 12:48:12 GMT
Hypocrisy certainly adds to the sense of outrage as highlighted by 'Back to Basics' but many still find the act of adultery to be morally unacceptable - the Cecil Parkinson- Sarah Keays affair comes to mind. The scandal in that was that he reneged on his commitment to marry her and was secretive about it. Yes, he was deceiving his wife and his mistress - it's like losing both parents in The Importance of Being Ernest. Personally I feel that since sex before marriage is no longer frowned on by most, serial monogamy has become the accepted norm of decent behaviour. Occasionally the jump to a new partner comes before the previous relationship has been legally dissolved and sometimes before the other partner has explicitly accepted its end. On the whole, that seems a matter of bad timing. But I regard repeated betrayal and deception differently, as I would if I was on the receiving end. For example, I don't know the details of Boris Johnson's personal life, and I have no problem with him or anyone else having a string of liaisons with willing partners. Good luck to both sides. However I do have a problem with failure to take responsibility for children and also with persistent lying and betrayal. Not only do I think it is reprehensible, I think it's a red flag when a politician is asking me to trust them with authority by voting for them. Johnson's political allies have often found themselves dumped and it amazes me that they are ever surprised. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 22, 2023 12:53:53 GMT
I am not even giving the assertion that the public (or more than 1% of 1% of 1%) finds unmarried parenthood offensive one seconds credence. You may wish to believe so but I don't think that is accurate. Many churchgoers would still strongly disapprove , and whilst now very much a minority , we are still talking about perhaps 10% of the population. I still know of several parents who have felt distinctly embarrassed when given the news that one of their unmarried offspring has a child 'on the way.' Some still favour putting the babies up for adoption!
More widely I think premarital sex is strongly disapproved of in the Muslim community.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 22, 2023 13:11:24 GMT
I suspect that many would recoil from being represented by an adulterer - male or female. Far fewer would now be bothered by a cohabiting candidate - though I do personally know of people who would refuse to support candidates who had kids out of wedlock. I'm not convinced that a large number are militantly censorious of adultery in itself, after all many of them or those they know will not be "without sin" in this regard. What has really got up people's noses, and continues to do so, is hypocrisy - preaching morality in public but not observing it in private. This was what made the "Back To Basics" fallout so devastating for the Tories three decades ago. Yes. This is veritably the strident British disease of preferencing hypocrisy as an evil over all the real evils. It could be seen as a rather subtle form of very gross hypocrisy in itself. I know! I know! I am in a desert of one in espousing this; but that is so familiar a country for me these days. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 22, 2023 13:13:30 GMT
Far more people ....far more......disapprove of churchgoers and Muslims
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 22, 2023 13:23:54 GMT
Far more people ....far more......disapprove of churchgoers and Muslims But the churchgoers plus the Muslim make up a significant section of the population - albeit both are minorities. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 22, 2023 13:34:45 GMT
Far more people ....far more......disapprove of churchgoers and Muslims But the churchgoers plus the Muslim make up a significant section of the population - albeit both are minorities. < sigh> Yes Graham, for certain values of significant. But they are less in numbers than the aggregate of families where parents are unmarried so less significant that sense and also the views of judgemental churgoers are wholly ignored, so also less significant in that sense. Now in the spirit of Christmas when we celebrate family, consumerism and conspicuous consuption, I am going to leave you and your Muslim allies to your prayers |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 22, 2023 14:34:51 GMT
Far more people ....far more......disapprove of churchgoers and Muslims But that is irrelevant to your first assertion which was just plain wrong and wrong by a very big margin. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 22, 2023 21:11:35 GMT
I'm not convinced that a large number are militantly censorious of adultery in itself, after all many of them or those they know will not be "without sin" in this regard. What has really got up people's noses, and continues to do so, is hypocrisy - preaching morality in public but not observing it in private. This was what made the "Back To Basics" fallout so devastating for the Tories three decades ago. Yes. This is veritably the strident British disease of preferencing hypocrisy as an evil over all the real evils. It could be seen as a rather subtle form of very gross hypocrisy in itself. I know! I know! I am in a desert of one in espousing this; but that is so familiar a country for me these days. No, you're not alone. Hypocrisy irritates me, but it doesn't hurt anyone. Things that do are worse. Conversely, being open about it is no excuse for being a shit. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Dec 22, 2023 22:31:10 GMT
But I think that "fair play" holds a lot of sway in British society, the fair play at cricket sort of test. Peter Bone was a strident traditionalist, and often spoke at length about traditional values. He turned out to be a hypocrite, and he was punished for being so: that's British values for you.
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andrewp
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Post by andrewp on Jan 3, 2024 18:05:49 GMT
Ben Habib is the Reform UK candidate
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graham
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Post by graham on Jan 4, 2024 11:39:10 GMT
Ben Habib is the Reform UK candidate If a by election does take place! |
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Max
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Post by Max on Jan 4, 2024 13:48:10 GMT
No reason not to move the writ for the by-election when parliament returns next week in the light of Sunak’s assumption about the GE date today.
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graham
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Post by graham on Jan 4, 2024 16:21:09 GMT
No reason not to move the writ for the by-election when parliament returns next week in the light of Sunak’s assumption about the GE date today. It will be interesting to see what happens but the Govt could keep the seat vacant until Easter with a view to holding the by election in May. |
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Post by greenhert on Jan 4, 2024 16:39:10 GMT
No reason not to move the writ for the by-election when parliament returns next week in the light of Sunak’s assumption about the GE date today. It will be interesting to see what happens but the Govt could keep the seat vacant until Easter with a view to holding the by election in May. Recent news has however suggested that this year's general election could instead take place in the autumn, making it more imperative that this by-election is called ASAP. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jan 4, 2024 17:13:53 GMT
No reason not to move the writ for the by-election when parliament returns next week in the light of Sunak’s assumption about the GE date today. It will be interesting to see what happens but the Govt could keep the seat vacant until Easter with a view to holding the by election in May. They can only delay it if they're allowed to. The only thing stopping another party from moving the whip is convention, and delaying for no very good reason is a good way to get conventions broken. Then again, I'm not sure it would be a good strategy anyway - the circumstances they're defending the seat in are bad enough that they don't also want to be attacked for deliberately leaving the seat without representation for any extra 3 months. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jan 4, 2024 18:54:55 GMT
It will be interesting to see what happens but the Govt could keep the seat vacant until Easter with a view to holding the by election in May. They can only delay it if they're allowed to. The only thing stopping another party from moving the whip is convention, and delaying for no very good reason is a good way to get conventions broken. Then again, I'm not sure it would be a good strategy anyway - the circumstances they're defending the seat in are bad enough that they don't also want to be attacked for deliberately leaving the seat without representation for any extra 3 months. There are many precedents for keeping seats vacant for 3 months - and indeed longer. Were another party to move the writ the Government could use its majority to defeat the move. It would also prevent the writ being moved again in this session. |
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Post by batman on Jan 4, 2024 19:01:50 GMT
I would be very surprised if even this government voted down a parliamentary move to call this by-election.
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