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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 28, 2023 16:25:19 GMT
There was historically a one parish enclave of Monmouthshire on the Herefordshire-Gloucestershire line.
I suggest we use its name to solve this dispute.
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Post by johnloony on Sept 28, 2023 16:56:07 GMT
Can someone explain why England even needs regions? Statistics. Television regions. Lower football leagues. Pages of an atlas. Analysing election results. Predicting / projecting actual / notional same. Stimulating threads like this in forums like this. |
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Post by londonseal80 on Sept 28, 2023 18:11:56 GMT
That would be incredibly unpopular especially with the recent controversy. If anything the reverse would be more popular– Havering being returned to Essex for example. In southwest London there would probably be an argument for combining the rich areas on both sides of the current Greater London boundary– Richmond, Kingston, Merton, and Sutton from Greater London along with Spelthorne, Runnymede, Epsom and Ewell, Elmbridge from Surrey, into a new "North Surrey" authority area separate to Greater London. It would be unpopular because they don't want to admit they live in Greater London, but they observably are part of a single conurbation. I don’t think Merton goes well with Surrey tbh. Wimbledon is affluent but feels very London along with being London postcode and having the underground, Mitcham and Morden doesn’t not belong with any the other SW London boroughs let alone any of Surrey, only the Northern parts of Carshalton and Wallington (St Helier East, St Helier West, Hackbridge, The Wrythe) and some bits of Epsom and Ewell West (Court, Ruxley, Horton) remotely resemble Mitcham in terms of large concentrations of social housing but it’s demographically still very different. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 28, 2023 22:25:17 GMT
And it means you can avoid putting up the name Carlton. It means I acknowledge that we're mostly a group of men who haven't quite kept up with music, sport, films or indeed ITV regions since whenever we all turned ~35. We're not all that old. The regions changed when you were 12 and you're far from the youngest here. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 29, 2023 8:07:56 GMT
It would be unpopular because they don't want to admit they live in Greater London, but they observably are part of a single conurbation. I don’t think Merton goes well with Surrey tbh. Wimbledon is affluent but feels very London along with being London postcode and having the underground, Mitcham and Morden doesn’t not belong with any the other SW London boroughs let alone any of Surrey, only the Northern parts of Carshalton and Wallington (St Helier East, St Helier West, Hackbridge, The Wrythe) and some bits of Epsom and Ewell West (Court, Ruxley, Horton) remotely resemble Mitcham in terms of large concentrations of social housing but it’s demographically still very different. And this is why Northern Surrey didn't get included in Greater London originally - because of snobs who didn't want to be in the same authority as the poors. But "demographically different" isn't a good reason - Upminster is demographically different from East Ham, but it's still part of London. The question is whether it makes sense for the areas to be administered together and the case for Reigate or Molesey being included is the same as the case for Purley or Hampton. |
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Post by londonseal80 on Sept 29, 2023 10:05:45 GMT
I don’t think Merton goes well with Surrey tbh. Wimbledon is affluent but feels very London along with being London postcode and having the underground, Mitcham and Morden doesn’t not belong with any the other SW London boroughs let alone any of Surrey, only the Northern parts of Carshalton and Wallington (St Helier East, St Helier West, Hackbridge, The Wrythe) and some bits of Epsom and Ewell West (Court, Ruxley, Horton) remotely resemble Mitcham in terms of large concentrations of social housing but it’s demographically still very different. And this is why Northern Surrey didn't get included in Greater London originally - because of snobs who didn't want to be in the same authority as the poors. But "demographically different" isn't a good reason - Upminster is demographically different from East Ham, but it's still part of London. The question is whether it makes sense for the areas to be administered together and the case for Reigate or Molesey being included is the same as the case for Purley or Hampton. It’s more the case that I don’t think of Merton as Outer London (only Lower Morden and parts of Cannon Hill look anything like the outer suburbs) same with Brent and Ealing. Even Richmond has a London feel to it to. Whereas Kingston blends into Elmbridge and Sutton blends into Epsom. You cross from Sutton into Merton you know have crossed into a completely different borough. |
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Post by islington on Sept 29, 2023 10:14:33 GMT
I don’t think Merton goes well with Surrey tbh. Wimbledon is affluent but feels very London along with being London postcode and having the underground, Mitcham and Morden doesn’t not belong with any the other SW London boroughs let alone any of Surrey, only the Northern parts of Carshalton and Wallington (St Helier East, St Helier West, Hackbridge, The Wrythe) and some bits of Epsom and Ewell West (Court, Ruxley, Horton) remotely resemble Mitcham in terms of large concentrations of social housing but it’s demographically still very different. And this is why Northern Surrey didn't get included in Greater London originally - because of snobs who didn't want to be in the same authority as the poors. But "demographically different" isn't a good reason - Upminster is demographically different from East Ham, but it's still part of London. The question is whether it makes sense for the areas to be administered together and the case for Reigate or Molesey being included is the same as the case for Purley or Hampton. Molesey yes; but Reigate is farther away on the other side of the North Downs and has much more of a feel of being a separate town (together with Redhill) rather than part of London. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 29, 2023 10:30:18 GMT
And this is why Northern Surrey didn't get included in Greater London originally - because of snobs who didn't want to be in the same authority as the poors. But "demographically different" isn't a good reason - Upminster is demographically different from East Ham, but it's still part of London. The question is whether it makes sense for the areas to be administered together and the case for Reigate or Molesey being included is the same as the case for Purley or Hampton. It’s more the case that I don’t think of Merton as Outer London (only Lower Morden and parts of Cannon Hill look anything like the outer suburbs) same with Brent and Ealing. Even Richmond has a London feel to it to. Whereas Kingston blends into Elmbridge and Sutton blends into Epsom. You cross from Sutton into Merton you know have crossed into a completely different borough. Given that the St Helier Estate straddles the borough boundary, this claim lacks plausibility. |
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
Posts: 2,922 
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Sept 29, 2023 10:53:23 GMT
The first election guide I bought, ITN's for election 1992 had the same boundaries as the current electoral regions of the UK, with the following differences:
In South East England instead of Eastern England: Bedfordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire
In Northern England instead of North Western England: Cumbria
In Northern England instead of North Eastern England: North Eastern England
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 29, 2023 11:37:50 GMT
The first election guide I bought, ITN's for election 1992 had the same boundaries as the current electoral regions of the UK, with the following differences: In South East England instead of Eastern England: Bedfordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire In Northern England instead of North Western England: Cumbria In Northern England instead of North Eastern England: North Eastern England AKA the Standard Statistical Regions en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_and_alternative_regions_of_England#Standard_statistical_regions |
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,456
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Sept 29, 2023 12:14:42 GMT
Here's a detail from an OS 1" map published as late as 1972 showing Monmouthshire as unequivocally English, Ebbw Vale and all. (Note the different marking signifying a national boundary as opposed to a mere county boundary.)  The idea that Neil Kinnock is an English windbag is ridiculous. Is that you Lord heseltine? |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Sept 29, 2023 17:09:29 GMT
Can someone explain why England even needs regions?
So we don't have to identify with London. 
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Post by michaelarden on Sept 29, 2023 21:33:58 GMT
The issue is that regional links and local identity don't match (see North Lincolnshire, the northernmost bits of Yorkshire near Teesside, etc) It would be possible to split off High Peak and move it into the North West England region, just as you could do the same with the former Craven authority area from Yorkshire. The question is what the local opinion of that would be. Craven? Really? Skipton is right next to City of Bradford Metropolitan District. That represents around 15,000 of the 60,000 people in the former district. The areas immediately around Skipton include Embsay, Low Bradley, Cross Hills, Sutton-in-Craven, Glusburn Green, Cononley, Carleton, and Gargrave. Combined these areas are half the district. Literally part of the Leeds City Region. And you want to move it to the North West? That is jumping the shark on this thread. The solution to this is surely return the lost bits of Yorkshire - Redcar, Middlesbrough and half of Stockton (south of the Tees) back to the county? The rest can return to Durham. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Sept 29, 2023 21:35:10 GMT
There was historically a one parish enclave of Monmouthshire on the Herefordshire-Gloucestershire line. I suggest we use its name to solve this dispute. Welsh Bicknor? |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Sept 29, 2023 21:39:45 GMT
Statistics. Television regions. Lower football leagues. Pages of an atlas. Can't believe it's taken this long to get to the ITV regions map tbh  |
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Post by bjornhattan on Sept 29, 2023 21:51:30 GMT
Craven? Really? Skipton is right next to City of Bradford Metropolitan District. That represents around 15,000 of the 60,000 people in the former district. The areas immediately around Skipton include Embsay, Low Bradley, Cross Hills, Sutton-in-Craven, Glusburn Green, Cononley, Carleton, and Gargrave. Combined these areas are half the district. Literally part of the Leeds City Region. And you want to move it to the North West? That is jumping the shark on this thread. The solution to this is surely return the lost bits of Yorkshire - Redcar, Middlesbrough and half of Stockton (south of the Tees) back to the county? The rest can return to Durham. The issue is that regional boundaries often overlap with traditional or ceremonial county boundaries. The regional boundary between the North East and "Yorkshire" really shouldn't be the Tees as that isn't where the cultural boundary is, nor does it reflect travel patterns. Middlesbrough is much closer to Newcastle than it is to Leeds, both geographically and in terms of where people tend to travel. Frankly, I'd go so far as to argue the current boundary doesn't go far enough - Richmond is intrinsically linked to Darlington, Stokesley is similar to Yarm in that it is outer Teesside suburbia, Whitby is the back of beyond but if it connects with anywhere then it's Cleveland. These should all really be part of an expanded North East along with Cumberland (Westmorland probably fits better in the North West and the watershed dividing the countries is a reasonable boundary here). Obviously I'm somewhat biased being from the North East, but a lot of where we perceive as regions comes down to subjective feelings; I don't feel like I've left the region if I go to Carlisle or Northallerton or even Scarborough - whereas I do if I go a bit further than any of them (to Kendal, Thirsk or Bridlington, say). |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,804
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Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 29, 2023 22:14:32 GMT
Whitby is the back of beyond but if it connects with anywhere then it's Cleveland. These should all really be part of an expanded North East Oi! They've been trying to slice North Yorkshire off Yorkshire since before the last War. The line must be drawn! No further! |
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Post by londonseal80 on Sept 30, 2023 7:40:04 GMT
Can't believe it's taken this long to get to the ITV regions map tbh The good old days of television before ITV1, ITV2 etc. I used to love watching the Thames and LWT idents as a child. They should go back to the regional idents, makes everything homely. |
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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 30, 2023 8:24:51 GMT
There was historically a one parish enclave of Monmouthshire on the Herefordshire-Gloucestershire line. I suggest we use its name to solve this dispute. Welsh Bicknor? Yes. |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 30, 2023 8:36:17 GMT
There was historically a one parish enclave of Monmouthshire on the Herefordshire-Gloucestershire line. I suggest we use its name to solve this dispute. Welsh Bicknor? Mornington Crescent! |
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