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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Aug 10, 2023 13:13:41 GMT
Not often my blood starts boiling reading threads here but this one is getting there - my wife is a „foreigner“ so I’m reading all the comments through that lens. Getting on for 15 years of paying taxes, teaching the next generation and contributing to society through raising her family and supporting me on council work. Having said that she is now a British citizen, we didn’t trust settled status at all so decided to bite the bullet post Brexit. The expense has already been mentioned but it’s the faff that was the worst thing. Swotting up for that ridiculous ‚Life in the UK‘ test and having to arrange an English test when she has a degree in English. So she fully intends to vote at the next election. But she should be able to either way - she pays enough tax to have a say, certainly locally and probably nationally. Postscript - in lockdown a few friends ran a monthly quiz night, when it was my turn I did a round of questions from the ‚Life in the UK‘ test. Fair to say most of the quizzers would have been deported…..was a real eye-opener for a few. BEING RICH ENOUGH TO PAY TAX SHOULD NEVER BE A QUALIFICATION FOR VOTING. With foreigners, it demonstrably is - these are not sums you can afford if you're not a taxpayer: www.gov.uk/government/publications/fees-for-citizenship-applications/fees-for-citizenship-applications-and-the-right-of-abode-from-6-april-2018 |
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,463
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Aug 10, 2023 13:25:55 GMT
Would this amount be sufficient do you think to promote the 'maximum outflow' to quote J Enoch Powell?  I don't know and had quite forgotten that Powell objective. He mentions it partway through the rivers of blood speech, i do like the opening line-The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. www.enochpowell.net/fr-79.html |
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ricmk
Lib Dem
Posts: 2,633 
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Post by ricmk on Aug 10, 2023 13:58:37 GMT
Not often my blood starts boiling reading threads here but this one is getting there - my wife is a „foreigner“ so I’m reading all the comments through that lens. Getting on for 15 years of paying taxes, teaching the next generation and contributing to society through raising her family and supporting me on council work. Having said that she is now a British citizen, we didn’t trust settled status at all so decided to bite the bullet post Brexit. The expense has already been mentioned but it’s the faff that was the worst thing. Swotting up for that ridiculous ‚Life in the UK‘ test and having to arrange an English test when she has a degree in English. So she fully intends to vote at the next election. But she should be able to either way - she pays enough tax to have a say, certainly locally and probably nationally. Postscript - in lockdown a few friends ran a monthly quiz night, when it was my turn I did a round of questions from the ‚Life in the UK‘ test. Fair to say most of the quizzers would have been deported…..was a real eye-opener for a few. BEING RICH ENOUGH TO PAY TAX SHOULD NEVER BE A QUALIFICATION FOR VOTING. Well I wasn't sure I agreed with you before, but now you've shouted at me in capitals, I can see you were right all along. Said no-one, ever. |
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 10, 2023 15:44:11 GMT
Though pretty much financially impossible unless you work in finance making obscene amounts of money. The cost of obtaining citizenship is grossly unfair Whereas I think obtaining citizenship is far too easy, too simple, too quick and nothing like expensive enough. It should be a difficult and highly prized priviledge obtained after years of proof of quality and status and value to the host nation and be impossible to the poor, the old and those with deficient or inadequate fluency in English. It should cost at least £10K minimum. What makes you think poor people, old people, and immigrants who learn Welsh rather than English aren't good enough to become British citizens? |
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Post by matureleft on Aug 10, 2023 16:06:47 GMT
Whereas I think obtaining citizenship is far too easy, too simple, too quick and nothing like expensive enough. It should be a difficult and highly prized priviledge obtained after years of proof of quality and status and value to the host nation and be impossible to the poor, the old and those with deficient or inadequate fluency in English. It should cost at least £10K minimum. What makes you think poor people, old people, and immigrants who learn Welsh rather than English aren't good enough to become British citizens? Indeed. Particularly as people get citizenship with none of this stuff by accident of birth. British citizenship is not merit-based. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Aug 10, 2023 16:26:15 GMT
Not often my blood starts boiling reading threads here but this one is getting there - my wife is a „foreigner“ so I’m reading all the comments through that lens. Getting on for 15 years of paying taxes, teaching the next generation and contributing to society through raising her family and supporting me on council work. Having said that she is now a British citizen, we didn’t trust settled status at all so decided to bite the bullet post Brexit. The expense has already been mentioned but it’s the faff that was the worst thing. Swotting up for that ridiculous ‚Life in the UK‘ test and having to arrange an English test when she has a degree in English. So she fully intends to vote at the next election. But she should be able to either way - she pays enough tax to have a say, certainly locally and probably nationally. Postscript - in lockdown a few friends ran a monthly quiz night, when it was my turn I did a round of questions from the ‚Life in the UK‘ test. Fair to say most of the quizzers would have been deported…..was a real eye-opener for a few. I don't know why you are so emotive about it. My (now ex-) wife is a foreigner (no need for scare quotes - she is a foreign national. I don't regard the word foreigner as a pejorative because I have nothing against foreigners). She has paid taxes for 20 years or whatever, raised a family, contributed to society yada yada. It is not an issue for her that she is unable to vote in national elections and if it was she could opt to take UK citizenship. This is a country, not a PLC - you don't get a say in how the place is run based on how much tax you pay (are you advocating a return of the property qualification?). Her reward for paying taxes is that she gets to use the roads and hospitals that they pay for, her children get educated at the schools they pay for. Someone else said that you have a right to choose who governs you. That is right, but by moving to another country you become a guest and you have chosen to be governed according to the wishes of the people of that country (unless you choose to move to somewhere like Belarus or North Korea). If I should retire to (eg) Spain I don't expect to be given the right to have a say over how the Spanish govern themselves. Say I lived in Catalonia - should I get a vote on whether or not to break up that country of which I am not a citizen? Of course not. I would pay taxes in return for whatever services are provided by the national and local governments - if I have a problem with the laws I am asked to abide by or the constitutional arrangements of that country I am free to (to coin a phrase) fuck off back to England |
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Post by jakegb on Aug 10, 2023 17:20:49 GMT
I don’t think there is an issue using the term ‘foreigner’, provided the context is non-offensive.
However - some of the posts earlier in the thread have some rather ugly connotations associated with the word ‘foreigner’, which are likely to cause offence, upset etc.
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 10, 2023 18:32:50 GMT
Whereas I think obtaining citizenship is far too easy, too simple, too quick and nothing like expensive enough. It should be a difficult and highly prized priviledge obtained after years of proof of quality and status and value to the host nation and be impossible to the poor, the old and those with deficient or inadequate fluency in English. It should cost at least £10K minimum. What makes you think poor people, old people, and immigrants who learn Welsh rather than English aren't good enough to become British citizens? Let's not go there and just admit to a different workd view. |
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 10, 2023 18:56:55 GMT
What makes you think poor people, old people, and immigrants who learn Welsh rather than English aren't good enough to become British citizens? Let's not go there and just admit to a different workd view. You're the one who brought this up. I'm just asking you to explain a really strange point of view that you voluntarily expressed. |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 10, 2023 23:36:58 GMT
I've voted "reasonable". There are some absolute clunkers, in both boundaries and names. Much blame has to be laid at the original legislation. We can't claim that our system is immune from gerrymandering while allowing Parliament to set so many tight and restrictive rules in legislation. I'm just waiting for the aftermath of that Ribble Valley. Can we get a seismograph hooked up for when the Bowland set find out they're in a seat with Bamber Bridge? |
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Post by mattb on Aug 11, 2023 2:33:37 GMT
I've voted "reasonable". There are some absolute clunkers, in both boundaries and names. Much blame has to be laid at the original legislation. We can't claim that our system is immune from gerrymandering while allowing Parliament to set so many tight and restrictive rules in legislation. I'm just waiting for the aftermath of that Ribble Valley. Can we get a seismograph hooked up for when the Bowland set find out they're in a seat with Bamber Bridge? That's no different to today, surely? |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 11, 2023 13:40:11 GMT
I'm just waiting for the aftermath of that Ribble Valley. Can we get a seismograph hooked up for when the Bowland set find out they're in a seat with Bamber Bridge? That's no different to today, surely? My mistake. It'll be for when the Bowland set find out they'll continue to be in a seat with Bamber Bridge? |
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Post by afleitch on Aug 12, 2023 10:39:37 GMT
Final verdict?
There's a deeper issue that across the UK in that there's a reluctance to define what makes a community. Local government is a mess; counties matter, except where they don't. Mets matter, except where they don't
Everything is about 'cost' and 'savings', not about defining communities and supporting them regardless of size.
So it's no wonder constituency creation is the same. Strict quotas, making sure numbers are within range for the fleeting moment of enumeration. As has been mentioned, extraordinary political interference too.
No reason why the old rules couldn't be retained. No reason why they can't have local reviews where required.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,111
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Post by ilerda on Aug 12, 2023 12:35:32 GMT
The community thing is a real problem. It should be a strong influence in devising constituencies in my opinion, but in reviews it is weaponised and misrepresented by all sides (including the BCE) to justify whatever they’ve decided they already want to do.
I liked the fact that pre-74 we used local government units as the basis for constituencies in most places. The loss of any real form of municipal government has had a terrible impact on communities in a myriad of ways, but losing those building blocks has certainly been a negative when it comes to designating constituencies.
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sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
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Post by sirbenjamin on Aug 13, 2023 18:53:28 GMT
The community thing is a real problem. It should be a strong influence in devising constituencies in my opinion, but in reviews it is weaponised and misrepresented by all sides (including the BCE) to justify whatever they’ve decided they already want to do. I liked the fact that pre-74 we used local government units as the basis for constituencies in most places. The loss of any real form of municipal government has had a terrible impact on communities in a myriad of ways, but losing those building blocks has certainly been a negative when it comes to designating constituencies.
Agree with all of this. And the 'Electoral Reform' lobby has an interest in undermining and downplaying the importance of geography in National politics.
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Post by johnloony on Aug 13, 2023 19:06:01 GMT
The community thing is a real problem. It should be a strong influence in devising constituencies in my opinion, but in reviews it is weaponised and misrepresented by all sides (including the BCE) to justify whatever they’ve decided they already want to do. I liked the fact that pre-74 we used local government units as the basis for constituencies in most places. The loss of any real form of municipal government has had a terrible impact on communities in a myriad of ways, but losing those building blocks has certainly been a negative when it comes to designating constituencies. Agree with all of this. And the 'Electoral Reform' lobby has an interest in undermining and downplaying the importance of geography in National politics.
The biggest factor in driving this change has been the tendency towards equalising electorates. It has already gone too far with the 5% limit. I would prefer to go back to the old system in which London boroughs had a whole number of constituencies, with no (or few) straddling over the borders. |
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sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
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Post by sirbenjamin on Aug 13, 2023 19:13:40 GMT
Agree with all of this. And the 'Electoral Reform' lobby has an interest in undermining and downplaying the importance of geography in National politics.
The biggest factor in driving this change has been the tendency towards equalising electorates. It has already gone too far with the 5% limit. I would prefer to go back to the old system in which London boroughs had a whole number of constituencies, with no (or few) straddling over the borders.
Absolutely.
The only exceptions really should be where two adjacent boroughs are about half a seat over/under quota, in which case a single cross-borough seat spanning the two is acceptable.
But I'm aware than I'm something of a purist when it comes to the relationship between LAs and constituencies - there are plenty of folks (not least on this board) who give few fucks indeed about it.
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Post by greenhert on Aug 19, 2023 15:27:26 GMT
Which constituencies that have been abolished by the Boundary Commissions are you glad to see gone?
My list is:
Meon Valley
Tiverton & Honiton
Hitchin & Harpenden
Hampstead & Kilburn
Brigg & Goole
Denton & Reddish
Weaver Vale
Unfortunately Central Suffolk & Ipswich North, Sherwood (now Sherwood Forest) etc. still remain although inevitably there will always be a few awkward constituencies, and so many even worse constituencies will now exist.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,111
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Post by ilerda on Aug 19, 2023 20:20:48 GMT
What’s objectionable about Tiverton and Honiton? Agree with the others but that one always seemed reasonable to me.
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Post by islington on Aug 19, 2023 20:56:19 GMT
Which constituencies that have been abolished by the Boundary Commissions are you glad to see gone? My list is: Meon Valley Tiverton & Honiton Hitchin & Harpenden Hampstead & Kilburn Brigg & Goole Denton & Reddish Weaver Vale Unfortunately Central Suffolk & Ipswich North, Sherwood (now Sherwood Forest) etc. still remain although inevitably there will always be a few awkward constituencies, and so many even worse constituencies will now exist. Lancaster & Fleetwood |
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