Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2023 7:08:13 GMT
Didn’t the Tories almost win City Centre ward in 2008? They got close but no cigar there and in Brooklands then, IIR.
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 23, 2023 7:16:14 GMT
Didn’t the Tories almost win City Centre ward in 2008? They got close but no cigar there and in Brooklands then, IIR. 2008 was a three way split (ish) in an undersized ward
Lib Dem - 568 Labour - 479 Tory - 386 Green - 179
Lib Dem hold, with LD, Lab and Tories all increasing their vote share (there had been an independent candidate in 2007)
As Devil Wincarnate has noted in the past Brooklands was a much better bet for them but that has faded away dramtically, not helped by losing second spot to UKIP on two occasions. |
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sirbenjamin
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Post by sirbenjamin on Jul 23, 2023 13:32:14 GMT
Question for the crayonistas: has anyone tried drawing compliant boundaries that take, as a starting-point, a "Cities of Manchester and Salford" constituency that covers the city-centre of Manchester and also the historic city-centre of Salford?
City of Manchester plus City of Salford as a pairing can fit exactly seven seats, though all of them would be on the large side.
Theoretically this should mean you can have two seats wholly in Salford, four in Manchester and one that crosses the border, and that one could close to what you describe, though maybe not able to include quite all of historic Salford as most of the borough would go into the two other Salford seats.
In practice it would be difficult and probably necessitate ward splits, or multiple border crossings, rendering it a less elegant solution.
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Post by owainsutton on Jul 23, 2023 15:19:36 GMT
Didn’t the Tories almost win City Centre ward in 2008? They got close but no cigar there and in Brooklands then, IIR. 2008 was a three way split (ish) in an undersized ward
Lib Dem - 568 Labour - 479 Tory - 386 Green - 179
Lib Dem hold, with LD, Lab and Tories all increasing their vote share (there had been an independent candidate in 2007)
As Devil Wincarnate has noted in the past Brooklands was a much better bet for them but that has faded away dramtically, not helped by losing second spot to UKIP on two occasions. Huh, small world...the same Lib Dem stood in Hale Central last year. Also in for the LDs in the City Centre ward, the year before, was Ken Dobson....the same one that was more recently elected as an independent in a Clayton & Openshaw by-election just before the pandemic, and ended up resigning by accident due to a Freeman-on-the-Land letter to the chief exec. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jul 23, 2023 18:00:21 GMT
The funny shape of the City of Manchester lies in its purchase of Wythenshawe in the Thirties. The old Manchester Corporation owned most of the housing stock and had built most of the amenities, and presumably it would have been strange for them to not have it in their continued ownership. This was helped by it being contiguous with other parts of the city. Outer projects of this type, such as Colshaw Farm in Wilmslow, or the Racecourse in Sale, were clearly too far out. That only explains the tail to the south though. Why did it not extend further north and east? It could have included Prestwich and Middleton to the north and much of Tameside and Oldham (Failsworth and Droylsden), even Denton and Reddish. Basically much of the 'M' postcode area. I guess the difficulty lies in the west with Salford being its own city and unlikely to be willing to be subsumed so taking a chunk out especially if Manchester was also to include the north of Trafford - which is also very Manchester facing... a certain football team to start with. Of course the tight Manchester boundaries did achieve one thing - eventually - the creation of a one-party state. I understand that back in the 70s Prestwich was a Tory stronghold, perhaps why the Manchester boundary suddenly stopped there. And even recently Failsworth has had some non-Labour moments too. I still think that Leeds has the perfect 'city' boundaries that truly takes in a logical metropolitan area of the city, and that is quite impressive given it is bounded by two other cities. Even Birmingham is a bit tightly drawn (much of Sandwell probably could have gone in). But Manchester is nowhere near as bad as Nottingham which really ought to include Broxtowe and Gedling, which nobody would miss, and I will not get off that soapbox. The only street in Reddish with an M postcode is Nelstrop Road North, the rest are SK5. It used to amuse us when canvassing that residents would complain that it as harder to sell their houses due to the postcode, even though they had the lower rates (poll tax now) of Stockport. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Jul 23, 2023 18:18:27 GMT
That only explains the tail to the south though. Why did it not extend further north and east? It could have included Prestwich and Middleton to the north and much of Tameside and Oldham (Failsworth and Droylsden), even Denton and Reddish. Basically much of the 'M' postcode area. I guess the difficulty lies in the west with Salford being its own city and unlikely to be willing to be subsumed so taking a chunk out especially if Manchester was also to include the north of Trafford - which is also very Manchester facing... a certain football team to start with. Of course the tight Manchester boundaries did achieve one thing - eventually - the creation of a one-party state. I understand that back in the 70s Prestwich was a Tory stronghold, perhaps why the Manchester boundary suddenly stopped there. And even recently Failsworth has had some non-Labour moments too. I still think that Leeds has the perfect 'city' boundaries that truly takes in a logical metropolitan area of the city, and that is quite impressive given it is bounded by two other cities. Even Birmingham is a bit tightly drawn (much of Sandwell probably could have gone in). But Manchester is nowhere near as bad as Nottingham which really ought to include Broxtowe and Gedling, which nobody would miss, and I will not get off that soapbox. The only street in Reddish with an M postcode is Nelstrop Road North, the rest are SK5. It used to amuse us when canvassing that residents would complain that it as harder to sell their houses due to the postcode, even though they had the lower rates (poll tax now) of Stockport. Surely these days the SK postcode would be more desirable than the M postcode (with the exception of M20 and 21...) |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jul 23, 2023 18:43:42 GMT
The only street in Reddish with an M postcode is Nelstrop Road North, the rest are SK5. It used to amuse us when canvassing that residents would complain that it as harder to sell their houses due to the postcode, even though they had the lower rates (poll tax now) of Stockport. Surely these days the SK postcode would be more desirable than the M postcode (with the exception of M20 and 21...) I think you misread my post, that is the very point I was making. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Jul 24, 2023 11:28:03 GMT
Yes but those are only a short distance away. The new centre of Salford is quite a long way from its traditional & distinctly bedraggled city centre. Does Salford have a centre, traditional or new? Salford Central railway station is just over the border from central Manchester. Maybe around the Crescent and the University? Maybe around the former town hall, wherever that is or was? Either way most residents of Salford City Council do not live in the area of the former Salford County Borough but in the suburbs beyond. The local government boundaries in Greater Manchester are a mess created by Peter Walker in 1972 when the Radcliffe-Maud report was binned. Manchester should have expanded east to cover the likes of Stretford as well as Salford, west to Droylesden and Audenshaw, and north to Middleton and Failsworth. The Government retained Manchester with almost no changes and then cobbled the rest of Greater Manchester into boroughs some of which were coherent, others less so. That explains why a Manchester Central Constituency has to stray outside the city borders to make up the numbers. |
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Post by batman on Jul 24, 2023 15:28:20 GMT
I'd say that the area around the cathedral is the traditional city centre. It certainly would have been a great deal busier a generation or more ago. Sometimes town & city centres go into decline; near to me Mortlake High Street is basically dead for pedestrians today, but in the early 20th century it was a busy high street like any other.
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jul 24, 2023 16:41:41 GMT
I'd say that the area around the cathedral is the traditional city centre. It certainly would have been a great deal busier a generation or more ago. Sometimes town & city centres go into decline; near to me Mortlake High Street is basically dead for pedestrians today, but in the early 20th century it was a busy high street like any other. Not really, as that area was Ship Canal/Docklands. Salford Cathedral is where it is as the politics at the time prevented a Catholic Cathedral being built in Manchester City, so Salford Cathedral is close to the main city centre as opposed to Salford's. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2023 17:02:13 GMT
Medieval Salford was around Greengate, so right up by the Irwell. In Victorian times, Salford as we know it spread from there up to Chapel Street and Adelphi (which I think it what CatholicLeft is getting at-apologies if not). What the centre of Salford is now is a topic where no two people seem to agree. I'd argue it's Salford Shopping City, but others would argue that this is Pendleton and doesn't count. Greengate was basically depopulated for decades so doesn't really count. Incidentally, Shopping City is built on top of the infamous Hanky Park colliery, setting for Love On The Dole. |
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Post by owainsutton on Jul 24, 2023 18:10:56 GMT
Yes but those are only a short distance away. The new centre of Salford is quite a long way from its traditional & distinctly bedraggled city centre. The local government boundaries in Greater Manchester are a mess created by Peter Walker in 1972 when the Radcliffe-Maud report was binned. Manchester should have expanded east to cover the likes of Stretford as well as Salford, west to Droylesden and Audenshaw, and north to Middleton and Failsworth. This ends up with a horribly large single authority, and doesn't then answer the questions of what you do with the other bits. Do the binned-off parts of Trafford remain in Cheshire? Does the County of Greater Manchester and the Greater Manchester County Council not come to exist? Trying to create metropolitan boroughs that worked and weren't of vastly inequal size, while keeping the airport within the City of Manchester, was a big challenge. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2023 18:27:57 GMT
The local government boundaries in Greater Manchester are a mess created by Peter Walker in 1972 when the Radcliffe-Maud report was binned. Manchester should have expanded east to cover the likes of Stretford as well as Salford, west to Droylesden and Audenshaw, and north to Middleton and Failsworth. This ends up with a horribly large single authority, and doesn't then answer the questions of what you do with the other bits. Do the binned-off parts of Trafford remain in Cheshire? Does the County of Greater Manchester and the Greater Manchester County Council not come to exist? Trying to create metropolitan boroughs that worked and weren't of vastly inequal size, while keeping the airport within the City of Manchester, was a big challenge. A theory. What happens without Wythenshawe there? Come the Sixties, you've got a big patch of open land between Altrincham and Stockport. Build a Paris-style new town between them along the Altrincham-Stockport line. A proper one catering for everyone, rather than being used to deport people from Ardwick and Ancoats to somewhere with no transport or jobs. Bundle North Cheshire into a sizeable met borough centred on this new town (Benchill-La-Vallée). Put it into Greater Manchester much as now. Oh, and call it North Cheshire to keep everyone happy. Useless for this thread but imagine what could have been. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Jul 24, 2023 18:41:21 GMT
This ends up with a horribly large single authority, and doesn't then answer the questions of what you do with the other bits. Do the binned-off parts of Trafford remain in Cheshire? Does the County of Greater Manchester and the Greater Manchester County Council not come to exist? Trying to create metropolitan boroughs that worked and weren't of vastly inequal size, while keeping the airport within the City of Manchester, was a big challenge. A theory. What happens without Wythenshawe there? Come the Sixties, you've got a big patch of open land between Altrincham and Stockport. Build a Paris-style new town between them along the Altrincham-Stockport line. A proper one catering for everyone, rather than being used to deport people from Ardwick and Ancoats to somewhere with no transport or jobs. Bundle North Cheshire into a sizeable met borough centred on this new town (Benchill-La-Vallée). Put it into Greater Manchester much as now. Oh, and call it North Cheshire to keep everyone happy. Useless for this thread but imagine what could have been. Wasn't 'Norchester' a suggested name before Stockport was chosen? I'd love to read the book that outlines the 1974 LA formations and the discussions that went into naming them (cf Tameside, Kirklees) - unfortunately all the Wikipedia references refer to a book that is not online. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2023 18:43:14 GMT
A theory. What happens without Wythenshawe there? Come the Sixties, you've got a big patch of open land between Altrincham and Stockport. Build a Paris-style new town between them along the Altrincham-Stockport line. A proper one catering for everyone, rather than being used to deport people from Ardwick and Ancoats to somewhere with no transport or jobs. Bundle North Cheshire into a sizeable met borough centred on this new town (Benchill-La-Vallée). Put it into Greater Manchester much as now. Oh, and call it North Cheshire to keep everyone happy. Useless for this thread but imagine what could have been. Wasn't 'Norchester' a suggested name before Stockport was chosen? I'd love to read the book that outlines the 1974 LA formations and the discussions that went into naming them (cf Tameside, Kirklees) - unfortunately all the Wikipedia references refer to a book that is not online. Yes, and Tameside was due to be Hartshead wasn't it? |
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Post by owainsutton on Jul 24, 2023 19:04:36 GMT
This ends up with a horribly large single authority, and doesn't then answer the questions of what you do with the other bits. Do the binned-off parts of Trafford remain in Cheshire? Does the County of Greater Manchester and the Greater Manchester County Council not come to exist? Trying to create metropolitan boroughs that worked and weren't of vastly inequal size, while keeping the airport within the City of Manchester, was a big challenge. A theory. What happens without Wythenshawe there? Come the Sixties, you've got a big patch of open land between Altrincham and Stockport. Build a Paris-style new town between them along the Altrincham-Stockport line. A proper one catering for everyone, rather than being used to deport people from Ardwick and Ancoats to somewhere with no transport or jobs. Bundle North Cheshire into a sizeable met borough centred on this new town (Benchill-La-Vallée). Put it into Greater Manchester much as now. Oh, and call it North Cheshire to keep everyone happy. Useless for this thread but imagine what could have been. Wythenshawe was already well-established as a concept for planners, and starting to be built, before WW2. Unless we just mean the southern parts that aren't able to adopt estate-agent labels such as Northenden? Mind, if you want to do this in the 60s, let's build in a new high-speed rail line (the Japanese are opening their first Shinkansen line, right?) that will relieve the WCML, and give it a useful stop in the area before heading into Manchester city centre. We could be world-leaders in this stuff!! Oh. |
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Post by owainsutton on Jul 24, 2023 19:05:18 GMT
Wasn't 'Norchester' a suggested name before Stockport was chosen? I'd love to read the book that outlines the 1974 LA formations and the discussions that went into naming them (cf Tameside, Kirklees) - unfortunately all the Wikipedia references refer to a book that is not online. Yes, and Tameside was due to be Hartshead wasn't it? "Crossford" was mooted for Trafford. And actually made more sense, confronting the cross-Mersey cross-historic-county divide rather than ignoring it. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2023 19:53:06 GMT
A theory. What happens without Wythenshawe there? Come the Sixties, you've got a big patch of open land between Altrincham and Stockport. Build a Paris-style new town between them along the Altrincham-Stockport line. A proper one catering for everyone, rather than being used to deport people from Ardwick and Ancoats to somewhere with no transport or jobs. Bundle North Cheshire into a sizeable met borough centred on this new town (Benchill-La-Vallée). Put it into Greater Manchester much as now. Oh, and call it North Cheshire to keep everyone happy. Useless for this thread but imagine what could have been. Wythenshawe was already well-established as a concept for planners, and starting to be built, before WW2. Unless we just mean the southern parts that aren't able to adopt estate-agent labels such as Northenden? Mind, if you want to do this in the 60s, let's build in a new high-speed rail line (the Japanese are opening their first Shinkansen line, right?) that will relieve the WCML, and give it a useful stop in the area before heading into Manchester city centre. We could be world-leaders in this stuff!! Oh. The original plans seem to be very Garden City compared to the reality. Closing Baguely station seemed really odd considering. |
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Post by owainsutton on Jul 24, 2023 22:07:13 GMT
Wythenshawe was already well-established as a concept for planners, and starting to be built, before WW2. Unless we just mean the southern parts that aren't able to adopt estate-agent labels such as Northenden? Mind, if you want to do this in the 60s, let's build in a new high-speed rail line (the Japanese are opening their first Shinkansen line, right?) that will relieve the WCML, and give it a useful stop in the area before heading into Manchester city centre. We could be world-leaders in this stuff!! Oh. The original plans seem to be very Garden City compared to the reality. Closing Baguely station seemed really odd considering. 'twas all about the motorways. (The top bit of the Trafford-Manchester border makes sense when you look at how they were going to carve things up.) |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2023 22:12:23 GMT
The original plans seem to be very Garden City compared to the reality. Closing Baguely station seemed really odd considering. 'twas all about the motorways. (The top bit of the Trafford-Manchester border makes sense when you look at how they were going to carve things up.) Of course. Sale Water Park being the hole they dug for aggregate. |
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