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Post by andrewp on Aug 13, 2022 21:03:50 GMT
Genuine question - is this council becoming completely dysfunctional? And what if it is ‘hung’ again at next year’s elections? You know more about it than most on here Peter… The question is the council completely dysfunctional poses a question to me. If the councillors are in apparent disarray in a situation like a Stoke on Trent or a Forest of Dean or a Spelthorne or a BCP, how much effect does that have on the delivery of services? I’ve worked for councils with one party majorities and I’ve worked in councils with NOC. There hasn’t been very much difference to the part of the organisation that I have worked in. I’ve worked in situations where single members are powerful and officers need to get that councillor‘s approval to do something, where as I’ve also worked for administrations where the whole executive need to be involved in a decision. I’ve seen plenty of councillors roll over and agree to officer plans. A large part of council business, particularly at unitary and upper tier councils, is the delivery of complex statutory services which a lot of councillors have little understanding/ interest / control over. A disproportionate amount of councillor attention and energy goes, understandably, on the very small proportion of non discretionary activity. At an upper tier level certainly, the major services of Social Services, Education, and Highways could easily run satisfactorily enough in a council with member disfunctionality. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,011
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Post by Khunanup on Aug 13, 2022 22:12:29 GMT
Genuine question - is this council becoming completely dysfunctional? And what if it is ‘hung’ again at next year’s elections? You know more about it than most on here Peter… It'll almost certainly be hung again next year, but I'd expect there to be a comfortable anti-Tory majority due to the utterly shambolic Tory administration that took over from the unwieldy, but surprisingly effective multi-party predecessor. It's pretty obvious that the Conservative parties in the three former boroughs don't get on and the Bournemouth party is completely factionalism. Which is good news for everyone else. |
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Post by John Chanin on Aug 14, 2022 7:30:40 GMT
Genuine question - is this council becoming completely dysfunctional? And what if it is ‘hung’ again at next year’s elections? You know more about it than most on here Peter… The question is the council completely dysfunctional poses a question to me. If the councillors are in apparent disarray in a situation like a Stoke on Trent or a Forest of Dean or a Spelthorne or a BCP, how much effect does that have on the delivery of services? I’ve worked for councils with one party majorities and I’ve worked in councils with NOC. There hasn’t been very much difference to the part of the organisation that I have worked in. I’ve worked in situations where single members are powerful and officers need to get that councillor‘s approval to do something, where as I’ve also worked for administrations where the whole executive need to be involved in a decision. I’ve seen plenty of councillors roll over and agree to officer plans. A large part of council business, particularly at unitary and upper tier councils, is the delivery of complex statutory services which a lot of councillors have little understanding/ interest / control over. A disproportionate amount of councillor attention and energy goes, understandably, on the very small proportion of discretionary activity. At an upper tier level certainly, the major services of Social Services, Education, and Highways could easily run satisfactorily enough in a council with member disfunctionality. This reflects my experience as well, of a lifetime spent working in local government (as well as a brief period as a councillor). Like most council officers I formed my own opinion of the council's competence (and more specifically of the lead councillor in the area I worked in). This had next to nothing to do with their politics. And very few were either well informed, or interested, as you say, about the basic administrative functions we carried out. In terms of service delivery, disfunctionality was much more important at managerial and director level. The only time most councillors got interested in the basic work of the council was when an external inspectorate dragged them over the coals. |
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Post by andrewp on Aug 14, 2022 7:57:25 GMT
The question is the council completely dysfunctional poses a question to me. If the councillors are in apparent disarray in a situation like a Stoke on Trent or a Forest of Dean or a Spelthorne or a BCP, how much effect does that have on the delivery of services? I’ve worked for councils with one party majorities and I’ve worked in councils with NOC. There hasn’t been very much difference to the part of the organisation that I have worked in. I’ve worked in situations where single members are powerful and officers need to get that councillor‘s approval to do something, where as I’ve also worked for administrations where the whole executive need to be involved in a decision. I’ve seen plenty of councillors roll over and agree to officer plans. A large part of council business, particularly at unitary and upper tier councils, is the delivery of complex statutory services which a lot of councillors have little understanding/ interest / control over. A disproportionate amount of councillor attention and energy goes, understandably, on the very small proportion of discretionary activity. At an upper tier level certainly, the major services of Social Services, Education, and Highways could easily run satisfactorily enough in a council with member disfunctionality. This reflects my experience as well, of a lifetime spent working in local government (as well as a brief period as a councillor). Like most council officers I formed my own opinion of the council's competence (and more specifically of the lead councillor in the area I worked in). This had next to nothing to do with their politics. And very few were either well informed, or interested, as you say, about the basic administrative functions we carried out. In terms of service delivery, disfunctionality was much more important at managerial and director level. The only time most councillors got interested in the basic work of the council was when an external inspectorate dragged them over the coals. Yes, I completely agree. The skills and ability of the director/ senior managers are nearly always a more important factor on the quality of the service than councillors. As you say, this has nothing to do with politics. And we form views of the council/ councillors competence. I have seen roughly the same small proportion of strong individual councillors in all three parties. I have seen portfolio holder/ senior manager relationships which are sort of teacher/ student but where the student has the final say. The job of the manager in that relationship is to teach/ coach the councillor. |
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
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Post by peterl on Aug 14, 2022 11:40:24 GMT
Genuine question - is this council becoming completely dysfunctional? And what if it is ‘hung’ again at next year’s elections? You know more about it than most on here Peter… It'll almost certainly be hung again next year, but I'd expect there to be a comfortable anti-Tory majority due to the utterly shambolic Tory administration that took over from the unwieldy, but surprisingly effective multi-party predecessor. It's pretty obvious that the Conservative parties in the three former boroughs don't get on and the Bournemouth party is completely factionalism. Which is good news for everyone else. As a former resident of the area, I'd say that about sums it up. I will make some attempt at predicting numbers when I have finished my ward profiles. |
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Post by carswellfan on Aug 14, 2022 16:50:12 GMT
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Aug 14, 2022 17:30:48 GMT
I have my doubts, there was widespread reports at the time there was tons of mistakes in the list. |
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Post by froome on Aug 14, 2022 17:36:49 GMT
I have my doubts, there was widespread reports at the time there was tons of mistakes in the list. Quite. That list if pretty much discredited, even if it did show up who some of the BNP membership at the time. Even if it turned out he was (as there appears to be no other evidence pointing to it, and he denies it), I wouldn't support expulsion, as people's views do change, and I've certainly met ex BNP members who deeply regret their membership and have got involved in left-leaning activities (though AFAIK I've never met any who were members of our party). |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
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Post by andrea on Aug 20, 2022 17:05:34 GMT
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,731
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 20, 2022 19:37:03 GMT
Hmm, so if Fromental Halévy's once-popular opera "La Juive" is to be revived in English translation, how should we translate the title? batman may have a view on this. |
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batman
Labour
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Post by batman on Aug 21, 2022 0:01:22 GMT
I do know female Jews who describe themselves as "Jewess". But that's a rarity and the word is usually regarded as fairly offensive nowadays. She's almost certainly more in trouble for her denialism of the fact that there has been an antisemitism problem in the party than for using that particular word. I'd never use it personally. There is widespread scepticism about her claim that she has spoken to a lot of Jewish members of Coventry S CLP - Coventry has an almost non-existent Jewish community.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Aug 21, 2022 13:20:51 GMT
I do know female Jews who describe themselves as "Jewess". But that's a rarity and the word is usually regarded as fairly offensive nowadays. She's almost certainly more in trouble for her denialism of the fact that there has been an antisemitism problem in the party than for using that particular word. I'd never use it personally. There is widespread scepticism about her claim that she has spoken to a lot of Jewish members of Coventry S CLP - Coventry has an almost non-existent Jewish community. That must apply to a lot of constituencies I imagine. How many constituencies have, say, fewer than 50 Jews? The same must be true of Hindus: there are (I'm guessing) maybe around three times more Hindus than Jews but whole swathes of the country must have almost zero. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Aug 21, 2022 15:06:04 GMT
I do know female Jews who describe themselves as "Jewess". But that's a rarity and the word is usually regarded as fairly offensive nowadays. She's almost certainly more in trouble for her denialism of the fact that there has been an antisemitism problem in the party than for using that particular word. I'd never use it personally. There is widespread scepticism about her claim that she has spoken to a lot of Jewish members of Coventry S CLP - Coventry has an almost non-existent Jewish community. That must apply to a lot of constituencies I imagine. How many constituencies have, say, fewer than 50 Jews? The same must be true of Hindus: there are (I'm guessing) maybe around three times more Hindus than Jews but whole swathes of the country must have almost zero. According to the 2011 Census (England and Wales), 160 constituencies had less than 50 Jews, the lowest being 8 in both Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. Coventry South had 111 (244/573, so actually in the top half). 17 constituencies have less than 50 Hindus, the lowest being 19 in SE Cornwall. |
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Post by iainbhx on Aug 21, 2022 15:12:38 GMT
I do know female Jews who describe themselves as "Jewess". But that's a rarity and the word is usually regarded as fairly offensive nowadays. She's almost certainly more in trouble for her denialism of the fact that there has been an antisemitism problem in the party than for using that particular word. I'd never use it personally. There is widespread scepticism about her claim that she has spoken to a lot of Jewish members of Coventry S CLP - Coventry has an almost non-existent Jewish community. That must apply to a lot of constituencies I imagine. How many constituencies have, say, fewer than 50 Jews? The same must be true of Hindus: there are (I'm guessing) maybe around three times more Hindus than Jews but whole swathes of the country must have almost zero. You'd be surprised, obviously we are still looking at 2011 census data for the time being but in the west midlands, only one constituency (Ludlow) has less than 50 Hindus whilst just over half of the constituencies have less than 50 Jews. Cov South had at the time 111 Jews, the chances of more than a couple of them being in the CLP must be fairly low given overall adherence to political party membership. It's not quite "Pants on Fire" territory, but I can understand batman's scepticism. |
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batman
Labour
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Post by batman on Aug 21, 2022 15:19:06 GMT
That must apply to a lot of constituencies I imagine. How many constituencies have, say, fewer than 50 Jews? The same must be true of Hindus: there are (I'm guessing) maybe around three times more Hindus than Jews but whole swathes of the country must have almost zero. According to the 2011 Census (England and Wales), 160 constituencies had less than 50 Jews, the lowest being 8 in both Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. Coventry South had 111 (244/573, so actually in the top half). 17 constituencies have less than 50 Hindus, the lowest being 19 in SW Cornwall. to be honest I'm surprised that there are so few constituencies where there are fewer than 50 Jews. I'd have thought it was a majority of seats. In Scotland there will be plenty more, there are very few Jewish people outside Greater Glasgow and Edinburgh. Ironically one of the best-known people to have come from Merthyr was boxer Howard Winstone, whose father was Jewish - I'd presume that the name was originally Weinstein, as with Lord Robert Winston. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Aug 21, 2022 15:35:01 GMT
Probably because there are quite a lot of non-observant Jews, who you might not necessarily realize are Jewish, spread around the country, as well as the observant Jews who will be much more concentrated in particular areas.
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
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Post by peterl on Aug 21, 2022 15:43:06 GMT
Probably because there are quite a lot of non-observant Jews, who you might not necessarily realize are Jewish, spread around the country, as well as the observant Jews who will be much more concentrated in particular areas. Probably areas near a synagogue of their denomination due to the limits on how far they are allowed to walk (driving etc not allowed) on the Sabbath. It would be very difficult for any observant Jew to live more than about a mile away. Studying world religions is kind of a hobby of mine. BTW, have we had this one? Conservative Steve Flood (Ipswich - Sprites Ward) suspended. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Aug 21, 2022 21:37:17 GMT
Warwick University would have its fair share of Jewish students, some living in halls and some in areas like Earlsdon. I dare say some of them would be Labour members although given the way student politcal societies are organised they might not count as members of the CLP - when I was involved in the Conservative students we had some affiliation to the local constituency party but were not members of it.
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 21, 2022 22:01:23 GMT
Probably because there are quite a lot of non-observant Jews, who you might not necessarily realize are Jewish, spread around the country, as well as the observant Jews who will be much more concentrated in particular areas. Probably areas near a synagogue of their denomination due to the limits on how far they are allowed to walk (driving etc not allowed) on the Sabbath. It would be very difficult for any observant Jew to live more than about a mile away. Studying world religions is kind of a hobby of mine. BTW, have we had this one? Conservative Steve Flood (Ipswich - Sprites Ward) suspended. Not to sidetrack discussion, but walking within city limits is totally permitted on the Sabbath, according to Chabad. But this is limited to how you far you can physically manage, of course. |
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 22, 2022 19:02:42 GMT
Warwick University would have its fair share of Jewish students, some living in halls and some in areas like Earlsdon. I dare say some of them would be Labour members although given the way student politcal societies are organised they might not count as members of the CLP - when I was involved in the Conservative students we had some affiliation to the local constituency party but were not members of it. Coventry University will also have some Jewish students, all of whom will be in South. I'd guess that at least 100 of that 110 figure would have been students at one of the universities. Warwick's Jewish society currently estimates 60+ Jews living on campus (though due to continued University expansion I'd expect the 2011 figure to have been lower).
I am quite happy to believe that there are one or two Jewish members of the Coventry South CLP, though it's almost certain that there are none at all in Cllr Thomas's ward party.
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