Bermondsey thirty years later

[Tactical Green]

Hugh Muir in the Guardian quotes Steve Radford alleging Liberal source for anti-Tatchell leaflets too:

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/21/hugh-muir-diary-peter-tatchell

[mboy]

Steve Radford? Seriously? A man who's been grinding his axe against the Lib Dems for decades! Revisionism that Labour laps up because it distracts from the fact that it was Labour dissidents who were responsible.

[mboy]

Feb 26, 2013 3:33:02 GMT johnloony said:

Feb 25, 2013 1:56:08 GMT johnloony said:

... I wasn't aware of the homophobic issue until afterwards.

It occurs to me that my source of information from the media at that time was from the Daily Telegraph and from BBC TV News. I would have been totally unaware of any more colourful homophobic (or otherwise) coverage or comment which might have been coming from the tabloid newspapers.

There has been a great deal of revisionism about the nature of the election. It has been morphed from a campaign with absurd and vicious political attacks about loony left and traitors into a campaign purely about homophobia because it has suited some parties to see it that way. And it continues to suit some parties to see it that way which is why it continues.

If the Labour party had put as much effort into cleaning up their own act as they have into throwing mud at the Lib Dems over this story then the likes of Phil Woolas and Miranda Grill would never have happened. But you won't hear them saying much about that...

[Tony Otim]

Feb 26, 2013 1:18:09 GMT timrollpickering said:

Feb 26, 2013 0:03:11 GMT mboy said:

But let's be clear: trying to blame the Liberals for a hate campaign that was being run by a combination of Old Labour and the right wing attack media - on the grounds that the Liberals didn't try hard enough to stop that campaign - is just pure smear work.

The usual charge is not that the Liberals sat back and reaped the rewards. Usually it's that the Liberals or individual groups of Liberals were stirring things themselves. "I've been kissed by Peter Tatchell" badges?

IIRC, those badges were produced by the Liberal Gay Action Group in an apparent protest because they thought Tatchell was attempting to go back into the closet. Under the circumstances, certainly not the brightest or cleanest of ideas though.

[Deleted]

My very clear memories of this campaign were that the most vitriolic gay smears were made by the 'Real Bermondsey Labour' camp but it is disingenous to suggest that the Liberals at the time just sat back to reap the whirlwind. The argument that the "I've kissed Peter Tatchell" badges were a pro-Gay statement that was ill-judged is laughable because, at the very least, it would suggest an 'Outing' campaign which I can't imagine could be considered clean politics.
I am sure the present seat would have been safe Labour now if there had been no byelection but Simon Hughes has proved himself an assiduous MP and has managed to hold on even in the most difficult circumstances.

[mboy]

Feb 26, 2013 10:01:09 GMT Tony Otim said:

IIRC, those badges were produced by the Liberal Gay Action Group in an apparent protest because they thought Tatchell was attempting to go back into the closet. Under the circumstances, certainly not the brightest or cleanest of ideas though.

That's true. The badges weren't homophobic, but were stupid and not funny ("student activists in stupid and unfunny stunt, shocker").

The thing is, as Lord Such said, Tatchell was a terrible candidate. Just look at the clips of him during the campaign - he comes across like an uppity student Marxist, which is exactly what he was. You see him sitting behind those make-shift debating tables acting like the chair of the Judean People's front, sounding exactly like them too. Meanwhile Hughes comes across as a man of the people talking about things they cared about (a lot of which were due to the failure of the Labour councils), which is why he won by miles...by 27%! Given that - contrary to modern revisionism - the homophobia element of the campaign at the time was small compared to the other political mud-slinging, Hughes would still have won by miles even if it hadn't happened (assuming he benefited from it anyway).

Since then, Tatchell and the Labour Party have developed a nice little symbiosis in this story. He is a huge self-publicist and loves being on TV. Labour have found that there is excellent smearage potential in the story against the Lib Dems every time it is in the news. And so both of them are happy to keep raising it and batting it back and forth so they can keep feeding at the trough of publicity. The Labour Party's cleansing of the story from any part played by renegade Labour members is really something to behold. Of course, right now the media feeding frenzy on all things Lib Dem gives an excellent opportunity for people to say anything they want and have people believe it, so I'm really not surprised at all that the usual suspects are making the usual accusations. If you say something enough, people will believe it, and that's what's at work here.

[The Bishop]

I certainly recall that the Sun played up the gay angle heavily - RED PETE WENT TO THE GAY OLYMPICS being one (in)famous headline - and I expect other tabloids weren't far behind. Contrary to some of the revisionism on here, the anti-gay smears got a fair amount of coverage (especially in the immediate aftermath of the result) and I think it may well be the first time I ever heard the now familiar term "homophobia". Yes, Tatchell's homosexuality *was* a major factor.

[Tony Otim]

Hey, I wasn't saying I agreed with the argument, just pointing out what it was. One of the reasons I remember it is one of the people involved, John Hein, is now the leading light of the Edinburgh Liberal Party. The irony of Tatchell being the victim of an "outing" campaign is also not lost on me.

FWIW, I think it was possibly one of the dirtiest campaigns I can recall and nobody comes out of it looking good, but I also think the divisions in Labour did far more damage than the smears and Tatchell would probably have lost anyway and by some distance, although maybe not 9,000 votes. I think there is an element of historical revisionism in any attempts to put it all down to Liberal dirty tricks.

[The Bishop]

But trying to play them down is equally "revisionist", tbh.

Yes, Tatchell was both a hard left and naive candidate whose politics would have been terribly ill-suited to this seat even if he had been ragingly heterosexual. But the fact of his gayness added a deeply visceral and unpleasant element to an already combustible mix (of which a decayed and in many ways deeply reactionary Labour "old guard" was a significant factor, I completely agree) There wasn't a 44% swing *just* because PT was a bad fit for Bermondsey.

Still less all the instances of crude abuse, assaults and indeed death threats (dozens of the latter alone) What caused THEM, mboy et al??

[mboy]

Lib Dem baby-eaters, obviously. The only reason such homophobia existed in UK society in the early 80s was because of the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems were tasked with eating babies and they just couldnt eat enough of them fast enough - that was the real problem.

[falconhoof]

Having recently rewatched the excellent Our Friends In The North, it is obvious that the writer took insperation from this by-election for the episode where Nicky stood for Parliament.

[thirdchill]

Feb 26, 2013 10:01:09 GMT Tony Otim said:

Since then, Tatchell and the Labour Party have developed a nice little symbiosis in this story. He is a huge self-publicist and loves being on TV. Labour have found that there is excellent smearage potential in the story against the Lib Dems every time it is in the news. And so both of them are happy to keep raising it and batting it back and forth so they can keep feeding at the trough of publicity. The Labour Party's cleansing of the story from any part played by renegade Labour members is really something to behold. Of course, right now the media feeding frenzy on all things Lib Dem gives an excellent opportunity for people to say anything they want and have people believe it, so I'm really not surprised at all that the usual suspects are making the usual accusations. If you say something enough, people will believe it, and that's what's at work here.

I don't think that's entirely fair with regards to Tatchell, who has by and large forgiven Simon Hughes for this. He did say a while ago in an interview that if he were in the lib dems he would vote for Simon Hughes for leader now (from looking at his record). Tatchell has moved on from it and in my opinion has become a better person for it. He is still left wing but he devotes his energies these days to freedom of speech, and has occasionally been lambasted by parts of the gay community for who he has taken sides with.

The liberals were not the main villains here, although they were the main beneficiaries. The bermondsey real labour candidate ran one of the nastiest homophobic campaigns ever seen at a by-election, and I hope we never ever see that sort of campaigning again. Politics may be a dirty business at times but that campaign was despicable and was worse than what Phil Woolas got kicked out for.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Feb 26, 2013 11:11:31 GMT falconhoof said:

Having recently rewatched the excellent Our Friends In The North, it is obvious that the writer took inspiration from this by-election for the episode where Nicky stood for Parliament.

I thought so when I saw it in 1996. Mentioned it at the time to PT who sadly hadn't seen it.

[The Bishop]

Feb 26, 2013 11:11:31 GMT falconhoof said:

Having recently rewatched the excellent Our Friends In The North, it is obvious that the writer took insperation from this by-election for the episode where Nicky stood for Parliament.

Yup - shame it was in the NE, though, which showed an anti-Labour swing lower than any other English region. And it was the 1979 GE, not a by-election (which made Labour losing a safe seat there to the Tories that much more improbable still)

OFITN was indeed a superb series, but that really annoyed the psephological anorak in me. If they wanted an electoral upset, they should have looked to Eddie Milne in Blyth for inspiration instead

[stepney]

Feb 26, 2013 10:50:29 GMT The Bishop said:

Still less all the instances of crude abuse, assaults and indeed death threats (dozens of the latter alone) What caused THEM, mboy et al??

Seriously, whatever the Liberals’ sins of omission and commission during that campaign, the bullets sent to Tatchell in the post and so forth did not happen because Liberal gay activists were pissing around with “I’ve been kissed by Tatchell” badges or because Focus leaflets were using ‘unfortunate language’ like "It's a straight choice".

The explanation lies in the twin cultures of homophobia and red-hating which reached a particular virulence in the early 1980s and particularly in working-class Sun-reading areas like Bermondsey (although I won't blame the Sun for the death threats etc either).

[Tangent]

Feb 26, 2013 11:22:02 GMT The Bishop said:

Feb 26, 2013 11:11:31 GMT falconhoof said:

Having recently rewatched the excellent Our Friends In The North, it is obvious that the writer took insperation from this by-election for the episode where Nicky stood for Parliament.

Yup - shame it was in the NE, though, which showed an anti-Labour swing lower than any other English region. And it was the 1979 GE, not a by-election (which made Labour losing a safe seat there to the Tories that much more improbable still)

OFITN was indeed a superb series, but that really annoyed the psephological anorak in me. If they wanted an electoral upset, they should have looked to Eddie Milne in Blyth for inspiration instead

They did: Eddie Wells, their fictionalised version of Milne, did win, but, unlike Milne, was readmitted to Labour at some point.

[The Bishop]

Feb 26, 2013 11:41:35 GMT stepney said:

Feb 26, 2013 10:50:29 GMT The Bishop said:

Still less all the instances of crude abuse, assaults and indeed death threats (dozens of the latter alone) What caused THEM, mboy et al??

Seriously, whatever the Liberals’ sins of omission and commission during that campaign, the bullets sent to Tatchell in the post and so forth did not happen because Liberal gay activists were pissing around with “I’ve been kissed by Tatchell” badges or because Focus leaflets were using ‘unfortunate language’ like "It's a straight choice".

The explanation lies in the twin cultures of homophobia and red-hating which reached a particular virulence in the early 1980s and particularly in working-class Sun-reading areas like Bermondsey (although I won't blame the Sun for the death threats etc either).

To be clear, I wasn't blaming the Liberals for that and largely agree with your comment (which makes a nice change )

Rather it was a reaction to the attempts of mboy (who I generally rate as a poster) and others to downplay the importance of anti-gay prejudice in the result *at all*. Tatchell may have been a crap candidate totally unsuited to the area - I haven't seen many Labour people here deny as much - but, to repeat myself again, that does not (indeed, cannot) explain a 44% swing or the general virulence of the feelings PT aroused in so many.

[East Anglian Lefty]

Feb 26, 2013 11:08:40 GMT mboy said:

Lib Dem baby-eaters, obviously. The only reason such homophobia existed in UK society in the early 80s was because of the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems were tasked with eating babies and they just couldnt eat enough of them fast enough - that was the real problem.

There is of course nothing revisionist in insisting that everything was everybody else's fault.

[The Bishop]

Feb 26, 2013 11:41:55 GMT Tangent said:

Feb 26, 2013 11:22:02 GMT The Bishop said:

Yup - shame it was in the NE, though, which showed an anti-Labour swing lower than any other English region. And it was the 1979 GE, not a by-election (which made Labour losing a safe seat there to the Tories that much more improbable still)

OFITN was indeed a superb series, but that really annoyed the psephological anorak in me. If they wanted an electoral upset, they should have looked to Eddie Milne in Blyth for inspiration instead

They did: Eddie Wells, their fictionalised version of Milne, did win, but, unlike Milne, was readmitted to Labour at some point.

Of course, you are quite correct - how could I have forgotten that FFS

[mboy]

Feb 26, 2013 12:11:47 GMT The Bishop said:

Rather it was a reaction to the attempts of mboy (who I generally rate as a poster) and others to downplay the importance of anti-gay prejudice in the result *at all*.

We will never know for sure, but given that at the time the homophobic aspect of the campaign was smaller than many now believe, it is extremely hard to believe that eliminating it would have overturned Hughes's 27.2% majority.

EAL said:

There is of course nothing revisionist in insisting that everything was everybody else's fault.

My posts clearly state the failings in the Liberal campaign. Hughes has publicly apologised for them, and will no doubt continue to do so every time mud-flinging activists accuse him. Labour, on the other hand, AFAIK have never apologised for the behaviour of some Labour Party members, and no doubt never will.