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Post by finsobruce on Dec 27, 2020 16:28:33 GMT
So when was a county of Humberside introduced as an idea, who by, and what were they thinking? With most other county boundary changes of that era, I can see some motivation even if there are also reasons why they might have been unpopular with some. But I've never understood that one.
Initially Humberside will likely have been an informal term for the docks of Hull, Grimsby etc, then the planning region of Yorkshire and the Humber came in being in 1964. Humber or Humberside will likely have been used in marketing terms after that. My best guess is the fact that Humberside was in use for regional planning purposes is what led to it becoming a county in the reorganisation of 1974.
In my usual way I'm having a look through the Newspaper Archive and the earliest reference to the word so far is from 1821, but it clearly refers to people in Hull being on the side of the Humber. And the word is hyphenated.
In 1839 there is a reference in a concert programme to a song called "Lass of Humberside" which was, somewhat confusingly, referred to as (Scotch).
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 27, 2020 16:42:13 GMT
Initially Humberside will likely have been an informal term for the docks of Hull, Grimsby etc, then the planning region of Yorkshire and the Humber came in being in 1964. Humber or Humberside will likely have been used in marketing terms after that. My best guess is the fact that Humberside was in use for regional planning purposes is what led to it becoming a county in the reorganisation of 1974.
In my usual way I'm having a look through the Newspaper Archive and the earliest reference to the word so far is from 1821, but it clearly refers to people in Hull being on the side of the Humber. And the word is hyphenated.
In 1839 there is a reference in a concert programme to a song called "Lass of Humberside" which was, somewhat confusingly, referred to as (Scotch).
In 1859 a parcel of land in the East Riding of Yorkshire is given the name 'Humberside' in a list of land swaps.
In 1870 at the second annual meeting of the Barton and North Lincolnshire Ploughing Society it is noted that " the dense fog that prevailed in the North Lincolnshire and Humber-Side district impeded the work of the morning, and delayed the start for fully two hours".
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 27, 2020 16:57:51 GMT
In 1859 a parcel of land in the East Riding of Yorkshire is given the name 'Humberside' in a list of land swaps.
In 1870 at the second annual meeting of the Barton and North Lincolnshire Ploughing Society it is noted that " the dense fog that prevailed in the North Lincolnshire and Humber-Side district impeded the work of the morning, and delayed the start for fully two hours".
The first non hyphenated usage (apart from the ballad) I've found is in the South Wales Daily News of the 8th of October 1883, in a list of recently notified shipwrecks : "A telegram from Kilnsea, telegraphed from Spurn Head, states that the Empress steamer is ashore on Spurn Point, Humberside. The ship is on fire, and will become a total wreck. Four men killed". In the "North London News" on the 16th April 1887 there is a report of a bequest to found a second grammar school in Hull, which it refers to as a "Humberside" town. |
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Post by John Chanin on Dec 27, 2020 17:20:07 GMT
In my usual way I'm having a look through the Newspaper Archive and the earliest reference to the word so far is from 1821, but it clearly refers to people in Hull being on the side of the Humber. And the word is hyphenated.
In 1839 there is a reference in a concert programme to a song called "Lass of Humberside" which was, somewhat confusingly, referred to as (Scotch).
In 1859 a parcel of land in the East Riding of Yorkshire is given the name 'Humberside' in a list of land swaps.
In 1870 at the second annual meeting of the Barton and North Lincolnshire Ploughing Society it is noted that " the dense fog that prevailed in the North Lincolnshire and Humber-Side district impeded the work of the morning, and delayed the start for fully two hours".
I am contemplating what a ploughing society might be. A sort of co-operative effort pooling horses? |
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Post by greenhert on Dec 27, 2020 17:30:19 GMT
So when was a county of Humberside introduced as an idea, who by, and what were they thinking? With most other county boundary changes of that era, I can see some motivation even if there are also reasons why they might have been unpopular with some. But I've never understood that one. It suddenly appeared in November 1971 when the Local Government Bill was introduced. It was the standout alteration in the proposals; there were many smaller changes from the map. Most of the county boundaries in the Bill as first introduced went on eventually to be enacted though there were a few changes made during Parliamentary consideration - not to Humberside, though. Or the other new counties, even when it was clear that some smaller counties would be completely taken over by the larger part of the new county e.g. Hereford & Worcester, which was rightly broken up 22 years later, as were Avon, Cleveland, and Humberside (yet the North Lincolnshire part of Humberside is still in the Yorkshire & Humber region rather than the East Midlands, where it should be!) |
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 27, 2020 17:38:03 GMT
In 1859 a parcel of land in the East Riding of Yorkshire is given the name 'Humberside' in a list of land swaps.
In 1870 at the second annual meeting of the Barton and North Lincolnshire Ploughing Society it is noted that " the dense fog that prevailed in the North Lincolnshire and Humber-Side district impeded the work of the morning, and delayed the start for fully two hours".
I am contemplating what a ploughing society might be. A sort of co-operative effort pooling horses? I've always understood that they were to stage competitive ploughing matches. |
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Post by John Chanin on Dec 27, 2020 17:45:52 GMT
I am contemplating what a ploughing society might be. A sort of co-operative effort pooling horses? I've always understood that they were to stage competitive ploughing matches. That baffles me even more. Did they have judges scoring how straight and evenly deep the furrows were? If it was just the speed of ploughing it might be very slapdash - or just not digging the shares so deep. |
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 27, 2020 17:53:29 GMT
I've always understood that they were to stage competitive ploughing matches. That baffles me even more. Did they have judges scoring how straight and evenly deep the furrows were? If it was just the speed of ploughing it might be very slapdash - or just not digging the shares so deep. Well yes, that's pretty much it.
To give a sample the Dundee Courier gives a report (25th March 1881) of the meeting of the Howe of Fife Ploughing Society. There were prizes for Best Ploughing, Best Finish, Best Feering, Best Kept Harness and Best Kept Horses. It was noted that "So equal were some of the competitors that no small amount of care had to be exercised by the judges". |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 27, 2020 18:02:04 GMT
It suddenly appeared in November 1971 when the Local Government Bill was introduced. It was the standout alteration in the proposals; there were many smaller changes from the map. Most of the county boundaries in the Bill as first introduced went on eventually to be enacted though there were a few changes made during Parliamentary consideration - not to Humberside, though. Or the other new counties, even when it was clear that some smaller counties would be completely taken over by the larger part of the new county e.g. Hereford & Worcester, which was rightly broken up 22 years later, as were Avon, Cleveland, and Humberside (yet the North Lincolnshire part of Humberside is still in the Yorkshire & Humber region rather than the East Midlands, where it should be!) Not sure what point is being made. Hereford and Worcester were put together by Redcliffe-Maud - as Herefordshire and South Worcestershire, with north Worcestershire included in the Metropolitan area. The Circular 8/71 map is close to what actually came about - the minor difference being that a small part of south west Staffordshire is added which was eventually left in Staffordshire. Avon was another Redcliffe-Maud creation, under the name 'Bristol and Bath'. The Circular 8/71 map is basically the same but omits some of west Wiltshire. The boundaries to both Gloucestershire and Somerset were tidied up when the Bill was introduced. Cleveland was much larger when originally proposed, and the Circular 8/71 map made it slightly larger still. It was cut back mostly because Durham and North Yorkshire needed to add population. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 28, 2020 1:39:13 GMT
It suddenly appeared in November 1971 when the Local Government Bill was introduced. It was the standout alteration in the proposals; there were many smaller changes from the map. Most of the county boundaries in the Bill as first introduced went on eventually to be enacted though there were a few changes made during Parliamentary consideration - not to Humberside, though. Or the other new counties, even when it was clear that some smaller counties would be completely taken over by the larger part of the new county e.g. Hereford & Worcester, which was rightly broken up 22 years later, as were Avon, Cleveland, and Humberside (yet the North Lincolnshire part of Humberside is still in the Yorkshire & Humber region rather than the East Midlands, where it should be!) And the North East Lincolnshire part. The first time I heard the term 'Yorkshire and the Humber' used was when those words passed David Dimbleby's lips during the 1999 Euro elections coverage. I am surprised to find that, if what Defenestrated Fipplebox says is correct, its creation predates our entry into the EEC. |
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 28, 2020 2:32:05 GMT
With Humberside, the fact that planning was well advanced for the Humber Bridge even by the '71 likely assisted in the creation of the county as that was infrastucture that was going to link both sides of the Humber much more easily.
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Post by greenhert on Dec 28, 2020 15:56:00 GMT
Or the other new counties, even when it was clear that some smaller counties would be completely taken over by the larger part of the new county e.g. Hereford & Worcester, which was rightly broken up 22 years later, as were Avon, Cleveland, and Humberside (yet the North Lincolnshire part of Humberside is still in the Yorkshire & Humber region rather than the East Midlands, where it should be!) And the North East Lincolnshire part. The first time I heard the term 'Yorkshire and the Humber' used was when those words passed David Dimbleby's lips during the 1999 Euro elections coverage. I am surprised to find that, if what Defenestrated Fipplebox says is correct, its creation predates our entry into the EEC. By "North Lincolnshire" I did mean both the authorities of North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire, with the current county of Lincolnshire being "Mid and South Lincolnshire". The Yorkshire & Humberside idea does indeed predate our entry into the EEC. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Dec 28, 2020 16:36:20 GMT
Or the other new counties, even when it was clear that some smaller counties would be completely taken over by the larger part of the new county e.g. Hereford & Worcester, which was rightly broken up 22 years later, as were Avon, Cleveland, and Humberside (yet the North Lincolnshire part of Humberside is still in the Yorkshire & Humber region rather than the East Midlands, where it should be!) And the North East Lincolnshire part. The first time I heard the term 'Yorkshire and the Humber' used was when those words passed David Dimbleby's lips during the 1999 Euro elections coverage. I am surprised to find that, if what Defenestrated Fipplebox says is correct, its creation predates our entry into the EEC. George Brown introduced the Yorkshire and Humberside Economic Planning area in December 1964, when he was Minister for Economic Affairs. As a planning area it ceased to be in 2010. |
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Post by john07 on Dec 28, 2020 17:14:55 GMT
With Humberside, the fact that planning was well advanced for the Humber Bridge even by the '71 likely assisted in the creation of the county as that was infrastucture that was going to link both sides of the Humber much more easily. You can trace it all back to the 1966 Hull North by-election. Barbara Castle raised the prospect of a Humber Bridge during the campaign. The seat had been gained by Labour in the 1964 general election with a majority of 1,181. The seat was retained with a majority of 5,351. That encouraged Harold Wilson to go for a general election with a landslide win. The creation of Humberside and the Humber Bridge were integral to each other and both were seen to help create Humberside as a sub-region. This prospect was viewed positively in the East Riding but negatively in North Lincolnshire. This issue reappeared during the Great Grimsby by-election in 1977. The Conservatives play on this particularly with Labour candidate Austin Mitchell being born in Yorkshire and had worked for Yorkshire Television as a presenter. He carried out the famous interview with Don Revie and Brian Clough. This approach seems to have flopped in the by-election. Mitchell alleged that the Conservatives were importing election workers from Harrogate with instructions to play up the fact that Mitchell was a Yorkshireman. In the outcome Mitchell held the seat very much against the trends and polled more votes than Anthony Crosland in October 1974. Meanwhile Labour lost the far safer seat of Ashfield on the same day. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 28, 2020 17:54:57 GMT
That baffles me even more. Did they have judges scoring how straight and evenly deep the furrows were? If it was just the speed of ploughing it might be very slapdash - or just not digging the shares so deep. Well yes, that's pretty much it.
To give a sample the Dundee Courier gives a report (25th March 1881) of the meeting of the Howe of Fife Ploughing Society. There were prizes for Best Ploughing, Best Finish, Best Feering, Best Kept Harness and Best Kept Horses. It was noted that "So equal were some of the competitors that no small amount of care had to be exercised by the judges". There's still at least one in operation in my neck of the woods, the Prickwillow Ploughing Festival, although it appears that for financial reasons it may not be returning after coronavirus. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 28, 2020 18:37:31 GMT
With Humberside, the fact that planning was well advanced for the Humber Bridge even by the '71 likely assisted in the creation of the county as that was infrastucture that was going to link both sides of the Humber much more easily. You can trace it all back to the 1966 Hull North by-election. Barbara Castle raised the prospect of a Humber Bridge during the campaign. The seat had been gained by Labour in the 1964 general election with a majority of 1,181. The seat was retained with a majority of 5,351. That encouraged Harold Wilson to go for a general election with a landslide win. The creation of Humberside and the Humber Bridge were integral to each other and both were seen to help create Humberside as a sub-region. This prospect was viewed positively in the East Riding but negatively in North Lincolnshire. This issue reappeared during the Great Grimsby by-election in 1977. The Conservatives play on this particularly with Labour candidate Austin Mitchell being born in Yorkshire and had worked for Yorkshire Television as a presenter. He carried out the famous interview with Don Revie and Brian Clough. This approach seems to have flopped in the by-election. Mitchell alleged that the Conservatives were importing election workers from Harrogate with instructions to play up the fact that Mitchell was a Yorkshireman. In the outcome Mitchell held the seat very much against the trends and polled more votes than Anthony Crosland in October 1974. Meanwhile Labour lost the far safer seat of Ashfield on the same day. The thought of Labour only beating the Tories by just over a thousand votes in Hull North is hard to fathom these days. Was it a bit posh back then? |
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 28, 2020 18:40:58 GMT
With Humberside, the fact that planning was well advanced for the Humber Bridge even by the '71 likely assisted in the creation of the county as that was infrastucture that was going to link both sides of the Humber much more easily. From what I have read the bridge did not create the hoped for economic growth. |
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 28, 2020 19:13:06 GMT
You can trace it all back to the 1966 Hull North by-election. Barbara Castle raised the prospect of a Humber Bridge during the campaign. The seat had been gained by Labour in the 1964 general election with a majority of 1,181. The seat was retained with a majority of 5,351. That encouraged Harold Wilson to go for a general election with a landslide win. The creation of Humberside and the Humber Bridge were integral to each other and both were seen to help create Humberside as a sub-region. This prospect was viewed positively in the East Riding but negatively in North Lincolnshire. This issue reappeared during the Great Grimsby by-election in 1977. The Conservatives play on this particularly with Labour candidate Austin Mitchell being born in Yorkshire and had worked for Yorkshire Television as a presenter. He carried out the famous interview with Don Revie and Brian Clough. This approach seems to have flopped in the by-election. Mitchell alleged that the Conservatives were importing election workers from Harrogate with instructions to play up the fact that Mitchell was a Yorkshireman. In the outcome Mitchell held the seat very much against the trends and polled more votes than Anthony Crosland in October 1974. Meanwhile Labour lost the far safer seat of Ashfield on the same day. The thought of Labour only beating the Tories by just over a thousand votes in Hull North is hard to fathom these days. Was it a bit posh back then? The Tories held the seat from its creation for the 1950 election until 1964. It was effectively the successor seat to Hull North West which Labour only won once, in the 1945 landslide just in time for it to be abolished!
Its one Labour MP RWG 'Kim' McKay was an Australian who spent most of WWII as a member of the Commonwealth party.
It was certainly the more genteel part of the city. The high rise Orchard Park Estate wasn't built until the mid 60s.
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Post by john07 on Dec 28, 2020 19:27:54 GMT
With Humberside, the fact that planning was well advanced for the Humber Bridge even by the '71 likely assisted in the creation of the county as that was infrastucture that was going to link both sides of the Humber much more easily. From what I have read the bridge did not create the hoped for economic growth. The problem with the Humber Bridge is that the road and motorway system developed as if it was not there (or under construction). Compare it to, say, the Forth Road Bridge. The Humber Bridge offered nothing in terms of non local travel to the area. No one from Grimsby or Immingham would use the Humber Bridge to travel North. Similarly no one from Hull would use the bridge to travel South. They would use the motorway system and go West to join the A1(M) or the M1. The Forth Bridge serves North-South long distance traffic between Aberdeen, Dundee, and Edinburgh, Newcastle, etc as well as commuter traffic from Fife to Edinburgh. I don’t think that the predicted economic integration between the North Bank and the South happened either. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Dec 28, 2020 20:08:14 GMT
From what I have read the bridge did not create the hoped for economic growth. The problem with the Humber Bridge is that the road and motorway system developed as if it was not there (or under construction). Compare it to, say, the Forth Road Bridge. The Humber Bridge offered nothing in terms of non local travel to the area. No one from Grimsby or Immingham would use the Humber Bridge to travel North. Similarly no one from Hull would use the bridge to travel South. They would use the motorway system and go West to join the A1(M) or the M1. The Forth Bridge serves North-South long distance traffic between Aberdeen, Dundee, and Edinburgh, Newcastle, etc as well as commuter traffic from Fife to Edinburgh. I don’t think that the predicted economic integration between the North Bank and the South happened either. You can see the Humber Bridge on a very clear sunny day, when driving down from Burbage Edge into Ringinglow, on the western edge of Sheffield. |
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