Foyle

[Chris from Brum]

Jul 14, 2021 8:39:05 GMT stb12 said:

Jul 14, 2021 7:10:49 GMT johnloony said:

Sinn Fein MPs do what they have been specifically mandated to do. That’s not what I call a mockery.

Abstentionism belongs to another era, whether I agree with the overall aims or not I can see the logic and coherence to the abstentionism of the old Sinn Fein and other Irish Nationalist parties. Don’t recognise partition at all, don’t sit in any body that legitimises British jurisdiction on the island of Ireland including the Dail of a 26 county Ireland and any devolved Assembly.

Now they take their seats in the Dail and Assembly, they also signed up to the Good Friday agreement which pretty much accepted Britain’s right to Northern Ireland until the people there choose otherwise. So the Westminster abstentionism is like trying to keep a relic from the past going, and with it being FPTP at least some of their constituencies will have a good chunk of voters who didn’t give the mandate to do that.

AIUI the flimsy excuse that they use nowadays concerns not being prepared to take the oath of allegiance to Brenda.  Some old republicans, such as Frank Maguire, did attend, presumably crossing their fingers behind their back when taking the oath, so why SF can't bring themselves to do the same is a bit of a mystery.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Jul 14, 2021 10:37:48 GMT Chris from Brum said:

Jul 14, 2021 8:39:05 GMT stb12 said:

Abstentionism belongs to another era, whether I agree with the overall aims or not I can see the logic and coherence to the abstentionism of the old Sinn Fein and other Irish Nationalist parties. Don’t recognise partition at all, don’t sit in any body that legitimises British jurisdiction on the island of Ireland including the Dail of a 26 county Ireland and any devolved Assembly.

Now they take their seats in the Dail and Assembly, they also signed up to the Good Friday agreement which pretty much accepted Britain’s right to Northern Ireland until the people there choose otherwise. So the Westminster abstentionism is like trying to keep a relic from the past going, and with it being FPTP at least some of their constituencies will have a good chunk of voters who didn’t give the mandate to do that.

AIUI the flimsy excuse that they use nowadays concerns not being prepared to take the oath of allegiance to Brenda.  Some old republicans, such as Frank Maguire, did attend, presumably crossing their fingers behind their back when taking the oath, so why SF can't bring themselves to do the same is a bit of a mystery.

The Sinn Féin constitution states: "No person who is a member of any organisation which approves of or supports the candidature of persons who, if elected, intend taking part in the proceedings of the Westminster parliament, or who approves of or supports the candidature of persons who sign any form or give any kind of written or verbal undertaking of intention to take their seats in this institution, shall be admitted to membership or allowed to retain membership.

No person who has taken any oath of allegiance to the Westminster parliament shall be eligible for membership until he or she repudiates the oath or declaration in writing to a Cumann, Comhairle Ceantair or Cúige."

It is not simply a matter of the oath or affirmation.

[stb12]

Jul 14, 2021 10:27:00 GMT @europeanlefty said:

Jul 14, 2021 8:39:05 GMT stb12 said:

Abstentionism belongs to another era, whether I agree with the overall aims or not I can see the logic and coherence to the abstentionism of the old Sinn Fein and other Irish Nationalist parties. Don’t recognise partition at all, don’t sit in any body that legitimises British jurisdiction on the island of Ireland including the Dail of a 26 county Ireland and any devolved Assembly.

Now they take their seats in the Dail and Assembly, they also signed up to the Good Friday agreement which pretty much accepted Britain’s right to Northern Ireland until the people there choose otherwise. So the Westminster abstentionism is like trying to keep a relic from the past going, and with it being FPTP at least some of their constituencies will have a good chunk of voters who didn’t give the mandate to do that.

But their voters did give them a mandate to do that, whether they agree with it or wanted to or not. Sinn Féin stand openly on that platform and everyone knows that they're voting for it when they vote SF. If you don't want to endorse it then vote for someone else 

Might have worded that badly because I was talking about people in the constituencies not voting Sinn Fein. Does an MP only have a duty to represent those that voted for them? I accept there’s some constituencies where they’ve been getting really high vote shares for a long time like Belfast West but others are more evenly divided with votes for non-abstentionist parties and it leaves everyone unrepresented.

As I say it’s a relic and I doubt it would lose them substantial support if they stopped considering much of the modern Sinn Fein backing comes from the perspective of them being very left wing. Any hardline support inclined to go to a more fringe extreme republican party would surely have went when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement

[The Bishop]

Jul 13, 2021 18:43:46 GMT rcronald said:

Hope we will ruthlessly attack Labour with it and if they dont condemn the scum then we should attack Starmer on Jimmy Saville!!

Away from NI for a moment, there are good reasons why even the bovver boys in the right wing press have been reluctant to go there.

[Merseymike]

Jul 14, 2021 10:54:30 GMT The Bishop said:

Jul 13, 2021 18:43:46 GMT rcronald said:

Hope we will ruthlessly attack Labour with it and if they dont condemn the scum then we should attack Starmer on Jimmy Saville!!

Away from NI for a moment, there are good reasons why even the bovver boys in the right wing press have been reluctant to go there.

Given he was a well known paid-up and public supporter of the Conservative party, quite...

[Merseymike]

Jul 14, 2021 10:52:33 GMT stb12 said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:27:00 GMT @europeanlefty said:

But their voters did give them a mandate to do that, whether they agree with it or wanted to or not. Sinn Féin stand openly on that platform and everyone knows that they're voting for it when they vote SF. If you don't want to endorse it then vote for someone else 

Might have worded that badly because I was talking about people in the constituencies not voting Sinn Fein. Does an MP only have a duty to represent those that voted for them? I accept there’s some constituencies where they’ve been getting really high vote shares for a long time like Belfast West but others are more evenly divided with votes for non-abstentionist parties and it leaves everyone unrepresented.

As I say it’s a relic and I doubt it would lose them substantial support if they stopped considering much of the modern Sinn Fein backing comes from the perspective of them being very left wing. Any hardline support inclined to go to a more fringe extreme republican party would surely have went when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement

It's symbolism. Far more what it represents than anything else.

[stb12]

Jul 14, 2021 10:34:02 GMT Merseymike said:

It seems to be a shibboleth which cannot be broken or changed despite the rationality in changing approach. I'm sure it is something discussed in SF circles but there's a lot of symbolism involved.

On the broader issue I'm sure that Eastwood did what almost everyone who voted for him or for his only competitor expected.

On balance I think an amnesty is the only sensible position but I understand why some are so reluctant to accept that, on both sides.

I don’t believe in amnesty as a principle but that genie went out of the bottle with the Good Friday agreement releasing all sorts of IRA terrorist as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

I’m not someone who thinks the British Armed Forces can do no wrong, but whatever Soldier F did and whatever the motives were I do get people resenting the pursuit of British soldiers in the context of a peace process that already saw justice not done for so many in the traditional sense because it was to be about the greater good.

[stb12]

Jul 14, 2021 10:59:25 GMT Merseymike said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:52:33 GMT stb12 said:

Might have worded that badly because I was talking about people in the constituencies not voting Sinn Fein. Does an MP only have a duty to represent those that voted for them? I accept there’s some constituencies where they’ve been getting really high vote shares for a long time like Belfast West but others are more evenly divided with votes for non-abstentionist parties and it leaves everyone unrepresented.

As I say it’s a relic and I doubt it would lose them substantial support if they stopped considering much of the modern Sinn Fein backing comes from the perspective of them being very left wing. Any hardline support inclined to go to a more fringe extreme republican party would surely have went when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement

It's symbolism. Far more what it represents than anything else.

I see that but so much of the traditional symbolism and beliefs have been given up by them already, the Good Friday agreement itself however much it gave to the Irish nationalist side still ultimately accepted Britain’s claim to Northern Ireland as legitimate.

It just doesn’t seem like serious politics to cling onto a last bit of symbolism especially when you consider the number of knife edge votes there was in the 2017-2019 Parliament.

[Merseymike]

Jul 14, 2021 11:20:29 GMT stb12 said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:59:25 GMT Merseymike said:

It's symbolism. Far more what it represents than anything else.

I see that but so much of the traditional symbolism and beliefs have been given up by them already, the Good Friday agreement itself however much it gave to the Irish nationalist side still ultimately accepted Britain’s claim to Northern Ireland as legitimate.

It just doesn’t seem like serious politics to cling onto a last bit of symbolism especially when you consider the number of knife edge votes there was in the 2017-2019 Parliament.

I think as you note it's that last bit of symbolism so changing it would be a huge step.

[Merseymike]

Jul 14, 2021 11:15:20 GMT stb12 said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:34:02 GMT Merseymike said:

It seems to be a shibboleth which cannot be broken or changed despite the rationality in changing approach. I'm sure it is something discussed in SF circles but there's a lot of symbolism involved.

On the broader issue I'm sure that Eastwood did what almost everyone who voted for him or for his only competitor expected.

On balance I think an amnesty is the only sensible position but I understand why some are so reluctant to accept that, on both sides.

I don’t believe in amnesty as a principle but that genie went out of the bottle with the Good Friday agreement releasing all sorts of IRA terrorist as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

I’m not someone who thinks the British Armed Forces can do no wrong, but whatever Soldier F did and whatever the motives were I do get people resenting the pursuit of British soldiers in the context of a peace process that already saw justice not done for so many in the traditional sense because it was to be about the greater good.

I do believe in amnesty. Sometimes I think it's the only thing which makes sense. It's awkward and can promote unease, sure, but I think it represents the reality of needing to move on.

[stb12]

Jul 14, 2021 11:26:56 GMT Merseymike said:

Jul 14, 2021 11:15:20 GMT stb12 said:

I don’t believe in amnesty as a principle but that genie went out of the bottle with the Good Friday agreement releasing all sorts of IRA terrorist as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

I’m not someone who thinks the British Armed Forces can do no wrong, but whatever Soldier F did and whatever the motives were I do get people resenting the pursuit of British soldiers in the context of a peace process that already saw justice not done for so many in the traditional sense because it was to be about the greater good.

I do believe in amnesty. Sometimes I think it's the only thing which makes sense. It's awkward and can promote unease, sure, but I think it represents the reality of needing to move on.

Certainly I don’t see any other way to go in Northern Ireland now other then amnesty

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2021 10:52:33 GMT stb12 said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:27:00 GMT @europeanlefty said:

But their voters did give them a mandate to do that, whether they agree with it or wanted to or not. Sinn Féin stand openly on that platform and everyone knows that they're voting for it when they vote SF. If you don't want to endorse it then vote for someone else 

Might have worded that badly because I was talking about people in the constituencies not voting Sinn Fein. Does an MP only have a duty to represent those that voted for them? I accept there’s some constituencies where they’ve been getting really high vote shares for a long time like Belfast West but others are more evenly divided with votes for non-abstentionist parties and it leaves everyone unrepresented.

As I say it’s a relic and I doubt it would lose them substantial support if they stopped considering much of the modern Sinn Fein backing comes from the perspective of them being very left wing. Any hardline support inclined to go to a more fringe extreme republican party would surely have went when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement

Ah no that's my fault for misreading what you wrote. I agree with your opposition to abstentionism and obviously it leaves those who don't vote for it unrepresented.

I would still argue that people who vote Sinn Féin are endorsing it even if they don't agree with it

[stb12]

Jul 14, 2021 12:46:44 GMT @europeanlefty said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:52:33 GMT stb12 said:

Might have worded that badly because I was talking about people in the constituencies not voting Sinn Fein. Does an MP only have a duty to represent those that voted for them? I accept there’s some constituencies where they’ve been getting really high vote shares for a long time like Belfast West but others are more evenly divided with votes for non-abstentionist parties and it leaves everyone unrepresented.

As I say it’s a relic and I doubt it would lose them substantial support if they stopped considering much of the modern Sinn Fein backing comes from the perspective of them being very left wing. Any hardline support inclined to go to a more fringe extreme republican party would surely have went when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement

Ah no that's my fault for misreading what you wrote. I agree with your opposition to abstentionism and obviously it leaves those who don't vote for it unrepresented.

I would still argue that people who vote Sinn Féin are endorsing it even if they don't agree with it

Yeah I’d agree SF voters can’t exactly be said to not be endorsing it, although the last election in North Belfast there seemed to be tactical support for Sinn Fein on the basis that it was better than having Nigel Dodd in Westminster voting through Brexit and that’s how the SDLP justified standing aside for an abstentionist candidate. So as ever the lines in a FPTP election can be blurred even in Northern Ireland