|
Post by No Offence Alan on Jul 5, 2020 19:01:00 GMT
If I may be frank, my fellow party members and I have put up with a lot of shit to attract voters. We have sat silently as our party has jettisoned personal responsibility, jettisoned fiscal prudence, jettisoned a commitment to the free market and sat and watched as we've turned woke. We even have Jackson publically distancing himself from Boris and the national party down south and adopting policies on immigration directly contrary to London, all in the aid of attracting voters. What more could we Scottish Conservatives have done? Despite the cheekiness of my previous post, I actually have a lot of sympathy for your position at the moment. I would love a centre right party to vote for, I may even vote for the Tories on the regional list next year, but the Scottish party is moribund whilst you have such an absolute chancer as Johnson as UK leader. For the party to elect someone who so clearly couldn't give a damn about the union certainly caused me to re-assess why I voted for them in the previous couple of elections, and even why I voted No in 2014. Clearly Ruth Davidson had a similar sort of "crisis of faith" to me. I think that sort of problem of perception is a far more salient problem for the party than the policy changes you mention. They are significant, but other than the "wokeness" which I suppose started under Davidson, they are all relatively new things which have been accelerated by Johnson and Sunak. Carlaw is untested but may well benefit from low expectations - I highly doubt the SNP will be on 55% in May for various reasons. Distancing himself from the national party seems like a wise move to me at the moment - it would do the party some good to be shown "standing up to Westminster" and even to Johnson specifically. I can see why Davidson got "scunnered" with the Westminster Tories. She delivered the best Tory results for decades in both the locals and the GE in 2017 (on a Unionist platform), only to see her 12 MPs used as lobby fodder while the Tories kow-towed to the DUP.
|
|
|
Post by MacShimidh on Jul 5, 2020 20:23:33 GMT
Despite the cheekiness of my previous post, I actually have a lot of sympathy for your position at the moment. I would love a centre right party to vote for, I may even vote for the Tories on the regional list next year, but the Scottish party is moribund whilst you have such an absolute chancer as Johnson as UK leader. For the party to elect someone who so clearly couldn't give a damn about the union certainly caused me to re-assess why I voted for them in the previous couple of elections, and even why I voted No in 2014. Clearly Ruth Davidson had a similar sort of "crisis of faith" to me. I think that sort of problem of perception is a far more salient problem for the party than the policy changes you mention. They are significant, but other than the "wokeness" which I suppose started under Davidson, they are all relatively new things which have been accelerated by Johnson and Sunak. Carlaw is untested but may well benefit from low expectations - I highly doubt the SNP will be on 55% in May for various reasons. Distancing himself from the national party seems like a wise move to me at the moment - it would do the party some good to be shown "standing up to Westminster" and even to Johnson specifically. Do you think the party would benefit from more independence from the UK one or even setting up a new party akin to the CSU/CDU union? If it was done right, a CSU/CDU type arrangement could work brilliantly in my opinion. If it marketed itself as "a patriotic Scottish party standing up for Scottish interests within the United Kingdom", at the very least it would kill off the argument that it's just another Westminster-run party. I could see such a party doing very well in the north-east, Ayrshire, and maybe even the Highlands and Islands. Sadly I don't hold out much hope for the current Scottish party making such a ballsy move!
|
|
|
Post by afleitch on Jul 5, 2020 20:33:24 GMT
I mean that's the main issue.
Davidson campaigned as a Remainer, won a football team worth of seats in 2017 and looked long and hard at the Scottish response to Brexit and decided; 'nah'. No push for soft Brexit or any Scottish concessions. Nothing that could actually have shored UP Tory support in Scotland. She rolled over and let the DUP make the decisions with the Scottish Tories trooping through the government lobby.
The Scots Tories did nothing for two years except talk about independence, deluded themselves into thinking the comments section of The Scotsman and the 'poisoned dwarf, Jimmie Krankie' Facebook meme back slapping was bigger than it was and tanked. Because the Scottish Tories have no spine, no initiative, no ambition and are nauseatingly slovenly in a way that the DUP never are with their genuine if misplaced sectarian Unionism and the independently minded Welsh Tories.
|
|
|
Post by chrisscot1988 on Jul 5, 2020 21:06:22 GMT
I mean that's the main issue. Davidson campaigned as a Remainer, won a football team worth of seats in 2017 and looked long and hard at the Scottish response to Brexit and decided; 'nah'. No push for soft Brexit or any Scottish concessions. Nothing that could actually have shored UP Tory support in Scotland. She rolled over and let the DUP make the decisions with the Scottish Tories trooping through the government lobby. The Scots Tories did nothing for two years except talk about independence, deluded themselves into thinking the comments section of The Scotsman and the 'poisoned dwarf, Jimmie Krankie' Facebook meme back slapping was bigger than it was and tanked. Because the Scottish Tories have no spine, no initiative, no ambition and are nauseatingly slovenly in a way that the DUP never are with their genuine if misplaced sectarian Unionism and the independently minded Welsh Tories. I think though that any analysis of the 2019 election that just ignores the Scottish Tory vote holding pretty steady, and actually going up in some of the seats they were defending (and still lost), misses the big picture of the problem here. Labour voters losing any belief that party can win at UK level and so flooding over to the Nats as the best anti-Tory vote. The 13 may have been lobby fodder but it didn't make any difference to their performance in December (only the one had any rebellious instincts, pushed for a Soft Brexit (which was torpedoed by the short sighted second referendumers) and was very publicly anti-Johnson and it didn't make the slightest difference. He's on the dole whilst probably the most ineffective one got over 50% of the vote and is now a Minister). The voters who shifted from Labour to SNP were never in play for the Tories. And the SNP MPs haven't mustered up a rebellion between them and noone gives a toss. It's not like any elected in 2015 to a strongly pro UK seat mediated their votes or behaviour accordingly. The fact is that without a credible centre-left pro-UK party the Union is in deep trouble. Which is why the SNP set out to destroy and replace Labour under Salmond whilst happily working alongside Goldie who should have known better. The Labour vote only collapsed massively in the last week in December when it became clear that unlike 2017 there was not going to be a Corbyn rebound down south. It's unlikely that Starmer can get back the soft-SNP vote in big numbers, but anyone on the pro-UK side, should be praying he can. If May hadn't messed up so badly and the 13 Scottish Tories had been part of a 30 or so majority, I suspect the last 3 years would have turned out rather differently. Or if the DUP hadn't taken the biggest influence they will ever have and threw it down the drain by getting in bed with the ERG and ending up with a version of the NI Protocol that manages to be worse than the backstop. I still don't think it's inevitable that Scotland will vote for indy, the questions that focus minds on polling day are still unanswered. But I think it's now very likely a second referendum will happen and the SNP will win an outright majority next May. I do think the Tory vote will hold up better than these polls are suggesting though. But they'll still be down seats, and Carlaw will be handily beaten in Eastwood.
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jul 5, 2020 21:23:24 GMT
I mean that's the main issue. Davidson campaigned as a Remainer, won a football team worth of seats in 2017 and looked long and hard at the Scottish response to Brexit and decided; 'nah'. No push for soft Brexit or any Scottish concessions. Nothing that could actually have shored UP Tory support in Scotland. She rolled over and let the DUP make the decisions with the Scottish Tories trooping through the government lobby. The Scots Tories did nothing for two years except talk about independence, deluded themselves into thinking the comments section of The Scotsman and the 'poisoned dwarf, Jimmie Krankie' Facebook meme back slapping was bigger than it was and tanked. Because the Scottish Tories have no spine, no initiative, no ambition and are nauseatingly slovenly in a way that the DUP never are with their genuine if misplaced sectarian Unionism and the independently minded Welsh Tories. Sadly, you're partially correct about our party leadership, they're overly cautious, perhaps even lackadaisical, about engaging the SNP and coming up with ideas. It deeply frustrates me. However, I want to clarify your point, I don't think you meant our members, but it bears saying because Jackson isn't going to do it. Our members aren't lazy or spineless. We spend our free time going out into areas traditionally hostile to us and talk to people, engage with them and are often a conduit to your party's councillors. That's one of the reasons why I'm so belligerent to the SNP. I grew up in Dundee, in a shitehole frankly, and it's only got worse since 2007. The SNP council spends megabucks on grandiose projects, recently an empty office block, while ordinary closies are literally falling apart and dog shit lines the streets of poor areas like lamposts. This is despite being told that they're doing a great job and are "stronger for Scotland". They're just not. This is the story of what motivates many of our members and they do a tremendous amount of work for the party, their communities and for the country. I'm deeply proud of that.
|
|
Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Jul 6, 2020 0:06:15 GMT
I'm sure the efforts of the Conservative Party to repel as many Scottish voters as possible over the last couple of years has nothing to do with it. If I may be frank, my fellow party members and I have put up with a lot of shit to attract voters. We have sat silently as our party has jettisoned personal responsibility, jettisoned fiscal prudence, jettisoned a commitment to the free market and sat and watched as we've turned woke. We even have Jackson publically distancing himself from Boris and the national party down south and adopting policies on immigration directly contrary to London, all in the aid of attracting voters. What more could we Scottish Conservatives have done?Perhaps you could try actually standing up for basic conservative principles.
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jul 6, 2020 7:59:19 GMT
If I may be frank, my fellow party members and I have put up with a lot of shit to attract voters. We have sat silently as our party has jettisoned personal responsibility, jettisoned fiscal prudence, jettisoned a commitment to the free market and sat and watched as we've turned woke. We even have Jackson publically distancing himself from Boris and the national party down south and adopting policies on immigration directly contrary to London, all in the aid of attracting voters. What more could we Scottish Conservatives have done?Perhaps you could try actually standing up for basic conservative principles. Trying to ensure the survival and continuity of the nation is the most basic conservative principle.
|
|
|
Post by afleitch on Jul 6, 2020 21:04:45 GMT
Anyway, support for independence leads in every age group except the over 55's which demographically is very favourable
It's at 46% amongst 2019 Labour voters; the last ones on the life raft.
What's also noticeable is the equal 'swap' of voters going from Yes to No and No to Yes (often due to Brexit) has shifted. Only 6% of 2014 Yes voters are now No but 21% of No voters are now Yes.
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Jul 11, 2020 0:02:19 GMT
Perhaps you could try actually standing up for basic conservative principles. Trying to ensure the survival and continuity of the nation is the most basic conservative principle. Nope, we must invade
|
|
|
Post by tonygreaves on Jul 13, 2020 13:19:02 GMT
Of course it all depends on what you think constitutes the nation. Those of us who do not dote on nations do not have that problem.
|
|
johng
Labour
Posts: 4,491
|
Post by johng on Jul 24, 2020 23:04:21 GMT
Some rather striking numbers from Yougov/The FT. 74% of Scots (and 59% of Brits) think the Anglo-Scottish relationship has weakened over the last five years.
|
|
|
Post by tonygreaves on Jul 25, 2020 13:05:09 GMT
well...innit!
|
|
Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,257
|
Post by Tony Otim on Jul 25, 2020 17:22:31 GMT
Some rather striking numbers from Yougov/The FT. 74% of Scots (and 59% of Brits) think the Anglo-Scottish relationship has weakened over the last five years.
Striking but hardly surprising.
|
|
|
Post by afleitch on Jul 25, 2020 18:11:26 GMT
I mean of course it has.
From a Scottish perspective Vote No, you'll get Devo Max, closest thing to federalism, be in the driving seat etc etc. It was all bull. Attitudes to Brexit have diverged, attitudes to the epidemic have diverged.
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 25, 2020 18:14:12 GMT
Some rather striking numbers from Yougov/The FT. 74% of Scots (and 59% of Brits) think the Anglo-Scottish relationship has weakened over the last five years.
Striking but hardly surprising. Indeed. In fact, evidence that the general public are not as clueless about politics as sometimes suggested.
|
|
|
Post by pragmaticidealist on Jul 26, 2020 10:45:15 GMT
Cameron's speech on the morning after the referendum.
|
|
|
Post by MacShimidh on Jul 26, 2020 11:12:12 GMT
Cameron's speech on the morning after the referendum. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked by that speech, a complete lack of magnanimity after a result that was way closer than it should have been. I suspect it did more damage to the unionist cause than has been recognised, and in his memoirs even Cameron himself acknowledges that it was a mistake.
|
|
|
Post by MacShimidh on Aug 1, 2020 13:44:00 GMT
Yougov have released favourability ratings of selected politicians in Scotland: Nicola Sturgeon +36 Rishi Sunak +7 Keir Starmer +1 Richard Leonard -28 (56% don't know!) Jackson Carlaw -32 Matt Hancock -38 Dominic Raab -38 Priti Patel -48 Boris Johnson -51 Michael Gove -57 Dominic Cummings -69
|
|
carlton43
Non-Aligned
Posts: 48,257
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Aug 1, 2020 13:52:16 GMT
Yougov have released favourability ratings of selected politicians in Scotland: Nicola Sturgeon +36 Rishi Sunak +7 Keir Starmer +1 Richard Leonard -28 (56% don't know!) Jackson Carlaw -32 Matt Hancock -38 Dominic Raab -38 Priti Patel -48 Boris Johnson -51 Michael Gove -57 Dominic Cummings -69 My own position is nearly the exact reverse of that table.
|
|
johng
Labour
Posts: 4,491
|
Post by johng on Aug 12, 2020 0:28:57 GMT
Yougov for The Times now has a poll showing a majority for independence. 53-47. So now they and Panelbase show there's a majority, though slim, for independence.
The full details and tables aren't out yet, but the SNP appear to be on 57% for the constituency vote in next year's parliamentary election.
|
|