timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Dec 23, 2020 13:31:39 GMT
I’ve never understood why they aren’t simply appointed for fixed terms. I suspect because when the concept of Life Peers was introduced it was largely a reward to people, mainly MPs, of retirement age, and life expectancy was considerably shorter. Now Peerages are dolled out to people barely in their 40’s, and even the older ones are hanging around for longer. It has been suggested to introduce a mandatory retirement age of 80, although given the strong contribution by some of the over-80’s (Alf Dubs on child refugees for example) that can have drawbacks. But ultimately they’re appointed “a Peer for Life” and so it’s pretty difficult to get rid of them, particularly when Lords reform doesn’t appear to be on a government’s “to do” list.
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 23, 2020 13:57:17 GMT
I’ve never understood why they aren’t simply appointed for fixed terms. I agree with that in principle, with the proviso of a fairly long term, say 10 years with the option of a maximum single renewal, so nobody could ever serve more than 20 years. It would certainly be preferable to the present life tariff, until such time as we get a wholly elected chamber, but even then a similar provision would not be unreasonable.
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Post by tonygreaves on Dec 25, 2020 23:59:29 GMT
I’ve never understood why they aren’t simply appointed for fixed terms. The Lords committee that set out the scheme to reduce numbers to 600 over ?5 years also recommended fixed terms of 15 years. It was agreed by everyone in the Lords, the only people who have blocked it are Mrs May and Mr Johnson. It could be done without new legislation (it would need new appointments to sign a paper agreeing to retire after 15 years if still there at that time - a bit like the non-dom business).
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Post by tonygreaves on Dec 26, 2020 0:02:48 GMT
I’ve never understood why they aren’t simply appointed for fixed terms. I suspect because when the concept of Life Peers was introduced it was largely a reward to people, mainly MPs, of retirement age, and life expectancy was considerably shorter. Now Peerages are dolled out to people barely in their 40’s, and even the older ones are hanging around for longer. It has been suggested to introduce a mandatory retirement age of 80, although given the strong contribution by some of the over-80’s (Alf Dubs on child refugees for example) that can have drawbacks. But ultimately they’re appointed “a Peer for Life” and so it’s pretty difficult to get rid of them, particularly when Lords reform doesn’t appear to be on a government’s “to do” list. I agree with much of this though I am not sure you are right about the reason for the invention of Life Peers in 1958. New peerages were already Big Gongs for most people and it was partly at least an attempt to get some new working peers into the House. Of course when most of the Hereditaries were invited to leave in 1999, the size of the House was 1300! But fewer turned up than do now.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Dec 26, 2020 0:26:56 GMT
I suspect because when the concept of Life Peers was introduced it was largely a reward to people, mainly MPs, of retirement age, and life expectancy was considerably shorter. Now Peerages are dolled out to people barely in their 40’s, and even the older ones are hanging around for longer. It has been suggested to introduce a mandatory retirement age of 80, although given the strong contribution by some of the over-80’s (Alf Dubs on child refugees for example) that can have drawbacks. But ultimately they’re appointed “a Peer for Life” and so it’s pretty difficult to get rid of them, particularly when Lords reform doesn’t appear to be on a government’s “to do” list. I agree with much of this though I am not sure you are right about the reason for the invention of Life Peers in 1958. New peerages were already Big Gongs for most people and it was partly at least an attempt to get some new working peers into the House. I didn’t mean it as a reason for inventing Life Peers, just that as they weren’t expected to have a working life of 30-40 years as some do now, there didn’t seem a necessity to have term limits as suggested in the original post by John Chanin
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Post by tonygreaves on Dec 26, 2020 16:24:14 GMT
I agree with much of this though I am not sure you are right about the reason for the invention of Life Peers in 1958. New peerages were already Big Gongs for most people and it was partly at least an attempt to get some new working peers into the House. I didn’t mean it as a reason for inventing Life Peers, just that as they weren’t expected to have a working life of 30-40 years as some do now, there didn’t seem a necessity to have term limits as suggested in the original post by John ChaninYes, though I suppose it was to match the Hereds whose only term limit was a lifer. The ill-fated Liberal Democrat Bill to reform the Lords during the Coalition set 15 year time limits on elected peers, which was non-renewable. The logic was to decrease the power of the party whips in the Lords.
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Post by tonygreaves on Dec 30, 2020 22:10:05 GMT
Notice of retirement from 19th February by Baroness Tonge (Non-affil - Jenny Tonge). It may be her 80th birthday. She is a friend who will be a serious loss to progressive opinion in the House but others may think differently due to her passionate support for the Palestinian cause. She moved from LD to N-A after some vicious and (IMO) wholly undeserved attacks on her and (IMO) foolish comments by the then party leader Tim Farron.
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Dec 30, 2020 22:16:13 GMT
Notice of retirement from 19th February by Baroness Tonge (Non-affil - Jenny Tonge). It may be her 80th birthday. She is a friend who will be a serious loss to progressive opinion in the House but others may think differently due to her passionate support for the Palestinian cause. She moved from LD to N-A after some vicious and (IMO) wholly undeserved attacks on her and (IMO) foolish comments by the then party leader Tim Farron. Do you agree with her then? The then party leader was Sir Nick Clegg, and Baroness Tonge's words were (according to the Guardian):
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 30, 2020 22:27:02 GMT
Notice of retirement from 19th February by Baroness Tonge (Non-affil - Jenny Tonge). It may be her 80th birthday. She is a friend who will be a serious loss to progressive opinion in the House but others may think differently due to her passionate support for the Palestinian cause. She moved from LD to N-A after some vicious and (IMO) wholly undeserved attacks on her and (IMO) foolish comments by the then party leader Tim Farron. Do you agree with her then? The then party leader was Sir Nick Clegg, and Baroness Tonge's words were (according to the Guardian): It rather depends on what she meant by "in its present form" surely?
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Dec 30, 2020 22:44:06 GMT
Do you agree with her then? The then party leader was Sir Nick Clegg, and Baroness Tonge's words were (according to the Guardian): It rather depends on what she meant by "in its present form" surely? There's also the question of what former Liberal party leader Jeremy Thorpe meant by "the foolish and offensive words of a few inexperienced and unrepresentative people, who apparently claim to possess Liberal beliefs" in his May 1970 speech on the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Dec 30, 2020 22:52:07 GMT
Notice of retirement from 19th February by Baroness Tonge (Non-affil - Jenny Tonge). It may be her 80th birthday. She is a friend who will be a serious loss to progressive opinion in the House but others may think differently due to her passionate support for the Palestinian cause. She moved from LD to N-A after some vicious and (IMO) wholly undeserved attacks on her and (IMO) foolish comments by the then party leader Tim Farron. She helped spread blood libel that Israel harvests the organs of black people. Her presence in the Lords was a stain upon it, as is yours.
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 30, 2020 23:03:11 GMT
Notice of retirement from 19th February by Baroness Tonge (Non-affil - Jenny Tonge). It may be her 80th birthday. She is a friend who will be a serious loss to progressive opinion in the House but others may think differently due to her passionate support for the Palestinian cause. She moved from LD to N-A after some vicious and (IMO) wholly undeserved attacks on her and (IMO) foolish comments by the then party leader Tim Farron. Do you agree with her then? The then party leader was Sir Nick Clegg, and Baroness Tonge's words were (according to the Guardian): Excellent advocate for the Palestinian cause. Liked the fact she wouldn't be told what to think by the Zionist advocates.
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Post by tonygreaves on Dec 31, 2020 21:02:34 GMT
As I suggested, Jenny is a person who is liked or hated. She is a good friend of mine and I am happy to be associated with her in the vicious and attacks she receives for her persistent and admirable backing for the Palestinian cause. Not sure what the May 1970 stuff is specifically about but if Thorpe said that at the time I may have been one of the people he was attacking since I had just been elected as Young Liberal Chair at the time!
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Dec 31, 2020 22:50:56 GMT
As I suggested, Jenny is a person who is liked or hated. She is a good friend of mine and I am happy to be associated with her in the vicious and attacks she receives for her persistent and admirable backing for the Palestinian cause. Not sure what the May 1970 stuff is specifically about but if Thorpe said that at the time I may have been one of the people he was attacking since I had just been elected as Young Liberal Chair at the time! You think demanding an investigation into whether Israel was harvesting the organs of dead Haitians is standing up for Palestinians? Clearly elderly racists can be Lib Dems too.
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jan 1, 2021 0:59:04 GMT
As I suggested, Jenny is a person who is liked or hated. She is a good friend of mine and I am happy to be associated with her in the vicious and attacks she receives for her persistent and admirable backing for the Palestinian cause. Not sure what the May 1970 stuff is specifically about but if Thorpe said that at the time I may have been one of the people he was attacking since I had just been elected as Young Liberal Chair at the time! I think it was probably less about your election and more about the reports of the sort of welcome the body you chaired gave to Moshe Kol, the leader of the Independent Liberals (your then sister party in Israel, affiliated to the Liberal International), whom Jeremy Thorpe had invited over to speak to you in the hope of moderating relations somewhat after the excesses of your predecessor, Louis Eaks. I'm sure you could fill us in on the details of how your meeting with Kol went – presumably, as a fellow Liberal International type, the reports will be wildly inaccurate and you actually welcomed him warmly and treated him with respect, just as you would have, say, Jack Lynch or Edzo Toxopeus or Walter Scheel – no tables banged, no voices raised, and no-one walking out, right?
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,468
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 1, 2021 11:27:38 GMT
Many people who strongly support the Palestinian cause also think both Jenny Tonge and David Ward forfeited the right to be LibDem parliamentarians.
Just putting that out there.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 1, 2021 11:54:56 GMT
It's very regrettable that too many of those who see themselves as friends of Palestinians think friendship means unqualified support no matter what their friend does. Palestinians could do with more candid friends.
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,151
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jan 1, 2021 12:04:04 GMT
It's very regrettable that too many of those who see themselves as friends of Palestinians think friendship means unqualified support no matter what their friend does. Palestinians could do with more candid friends. I'd very much agree with that, while at the same time observing that Netanyahu's leadership of Israel has made it tough to declare oneself a wholehearted friend of that state.
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,151
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jan 1, 2021 13:16:50 GMT
It's very regrettable that too many of those who see themselves as friends of Palestinians think friendship means unqualified support no matter what their friend does. Palestinians could do with more candid friends. I'd very much agree with that, while at the same time observing that Netanyahu's leadership of Israel has made it tough to declare oneself a wholehearted friend of that state. And although not a Labour member or socialist of any kind, I hope I can suggest that any socialist pledging any kind of allegiance to a bunch of theocratic thugs like Hamas has forfeited the right to be taken seriously as a socialist. This applies to J Corbyn, G Galloway and any of their sycophants and other hangers-on.
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Post by tonygreaves on Jan 1, 2021 15:58:25 GMT
As I suggested, Jenny is a person who is liked or hated. She is a good friend of mine and I am happy to be associated with her in the vicious and attacks she receives for her persistent and admirable backing for the Palestinian cause. Not sure what the May 1970 stuff is specifically about but if Thorpe said that at the time I may have been one of the people he was attacking since I had just been elected as Young Liberal Chair at the time! I think it was probably less about your election and more about the reports of the sort of welcome the body you chaired gave to Moshe Kol, the leader of the Independent Liberals (your then sister party in Israel, affiliated to the Liberal International), whom Jeremy Thorpe had invited over to speak to you in the hope of moderating relations somewhat after the excesses of your predecessor, Louis Eaks. I'm sure you could fill us in on the details of how your meeting with Kol went – presumably, as a fellow Liberal International type, the reports will be wildly inaccurate and you actually welcomed him warmly and treated him with respect, just as you would have, say, Jack Lynch or Edzo Toxopeus or Walter Scheel – no tables banged, no voices raised, and no-one walking out, right? As it happens I don't know that I ever heard of him then or now, or ever gave him any kind of "welcome". Or if I did I have forgotten - I certainly never, to my knowledge, met him. I could tell you some unedifying stories about those days and Mr Thorpe but the one you relate is something I have forgotten or never knew about. As for "sister parties" there have at times been some around the world that I would not touch with a bargepole!
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