Dec 2019 electorates

[hullenedge]

Jun 25, 2020 15:02:31 GMT edgbaston said:

Jun 25, 2020 9:29:42 GMT islington said:

Edgbaston, although I agree (through gritted teeth) that ward splits are probably going to be necessary, wouldn't it be better to use them to respect LA boundaries and (where possible) existing constituencies?

For instance, Bradford is good for 5 seats on the 2019 numbers (entitlement 4.96) and its 5 current seats are all within range. Given that you've already respected Calderdale's boundary,  would it not be possible to position your splits in other authorities to respect Bradford's boundary and keeps its seats unaltered?

Also, I don't think you can treat W Yorks in isolation. Barnsley (entitlement 2.43) needs to be partnered and there's no plausible candidate in S Yorks, so I think it will have to be treated with W Yorks.

I was trying to do as few splits as possible while still having nice seats.

But Bradford district is a nonsensical authority so I will absolutely defend splitting it.

I prefer to cross the North Lincolnshire border but have not done so yet as I am at work! But I will tonight.

But. We have a very different approach to drawing these maps. So I would perhaps be disappointed if you liked my plan. I await yours.

Not being confrontational but Bradford is a far more sensical borough/district than Kirklees.

[J.G.Harston]

Jun 25, 2020 15:04:30 GMT islington said:

Jun 25, 2020 13:55:53 GMT J.G.Harston said:

It's not about preserving Penistone, but that the most fitting cross-border seat for Sheffield is one that crosses the border into Barnsley.

Why?

Geography and community.

[J.G.Harston]

Jun 25, 2020 15:18:08 GMT hullenedge said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:02:31 GMT edgbaston said:

But Bradford district is a nonsensical authority so I will absolutely defend splitting it.

Not being confrontational but Bradford is a far more sensical borough/district than Kirklees.

I always have to remind myself that Ilkley is in Bradford MDC, it feels like it should be in Leeds, bah tat.

[ilerda]

There are currently two seats that cross the boundary into different boroughs - Penistone & Stocksbridge, and Wentworth & Dearne.

I think the point about geography and community is important. Unlike some other metropolitan counties South Yorkshire actually has a large number of settlements that are still distinct and geographically separate communities. This means that the borough boundaries are centred on a large town but actually the smaller places in between are allocated rather randomly and often have closer connections to the small town or village on the other side of the borough boundary than to the main town or other small communities in their own borough.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2020 16:27:44 GMT ilerda said:

There are currently two seats that cross the boundary into different boroughs - Penistone & Stocksbridge, and Wentworth & Dearne.

I think the point about geography and community is important. Unlike some other metropolitan counties South Yorkshire actually has a large number of settlements that are still distinct and geographically separate communities. This means that the borough boundaries are centred on a large town but actually the smaller places in between are allocated rather randomly and often have closer connections to the small town or village on the other side of the borough boundary than to the main town or other small communities in their own borough.

This ties into what we were saying before about constituency drawing. There should always be consideration of the links between places within a constituency and sometimes the sphere of influence is not where you think.

[🏴‍☠️ Neath West 🏴‍☠️]

Jun 24, 2020 21:40:06 GMT minionofmidas said:

Jun 24, 2020 16:24:54 GMT Sibboleth said:

That map gives off very strong 'have you planned your funeral yet?' vibes.

Yeah, I'm morbidly curious about the worse ways.

Well, there's splitting Shifnal:

1 Oswestry 75527 Yes
2 The Wrekin 75477 Yes
3 Shrewsbury and Atcham 75341 Yes
4 Ludlow 75696 Yes
5 Telford 75231 Yes

[edgbaston]

Jun 25, 2020 15:18:08 GMT hullenedge said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:02:31 GMT edgbaston said:

I was trying to do as few splits as possible while still having nice seats.

But Bradford district is a nonsensical authority so I will absolutely defend splitting it.

I prefer to cross the North Lincolnshire border but have not done so yet as I am at work! But I will tonight.

But. We have a very different approach to drawing these maps. So I would perhaps be disappointed if you liked my plan. I await yours.

Not being confrontational but Bradford is a far more sensical borough/district than Kirklees.

And the point is? 

[greenhert]

Finally managed to complete a Yorkshire & Humber plan (ward splits necessary due to the sheer size of wards in West Yorkshire in particular):




Leeds North West (safe Labour)
Elmet & Rothwell (safe Conservative)
Leeds North East (very safe Labour)
Leeds South East (very safe Labour)
Morley (marginal Labour)
Leeds South West (very safe Labour)
Pudsey (semi-marginal Conservative)
Ripon (ultra-safe Conservative)
Skipton & Richmond (ultra-safe Conservative)
Selby & Ainsty (very safe Conservative)
Harrogate & Knaresborough (semi-marginal Conservative)
Thirsk & Northallerton (ultra-safe Conservative)
Malton & Pocklington (ultra-safe Conservative)
York Central (safe Labour)
York Outer (safe Conservative)
Bridlington (very safe Conservative)
Scarborough & Whitby (safe Conservative)
Beverley (very safe Conservative)
Hull West & Haltemprice (marginal Conservative)
Goole & Axholme (very safe Conservative)
Hull North (safe Labour)
Hull South (marginal Labour)
Scunthorpe (marginal Conservative)
Brigg (very safe Conservative)
Grimsby & Cleethorpes (marginal Conservative)
Keighley (marginal Conservative)
Shipley (marginal Conservative)
Bradford East (very safe Labour)
Bradford West (very safe Labour)
Bradford South (safe Labour)
Halifax (marginal Labour)
Calder Valley (semi-marginal Conservative)
Batley & Spen (semi-marginal Labour)
Huddersfield (very safe Labour)
Colne Valley (ultra-marginal Conservative)
Dewsbury & Ossett (marginal Conservative)
Penistone (marginal Labour)
Barnsley East (marginal Labour)
Barnsley Central (safe Labour)
Wakefield & Outwood (semi-marginal Conservative)
Pontefract & Castleford (ultra-marginal Labour)
Hemsworth & Normanton (marginal Labour)
Doncaster North (marginal Conservative)
Doncaster Central (marginal Labour)
Don Valley (ultra-marginal Labour)
Sheffield Hallam (marginal Labour)
Sheffield Hillsborough (marginal Labour)
Sheffield Central (very safe Labour)
Sheffield Brightside (very safe Labour)
Sheffield Heeley (very safe Labour)
Rotherham West (marginal Labour)
Rotherham East (marginal Labour)
Rother Valley & Mosborough (marginal Labour)

[lancastrian]

Jun 25, 2020 21:40:21 GMT 🏴‍☠️ Neath West 🏴‍☠️ said:

Jun 24, 2020 21:40:06 GMT minionofmidas said:

Yeah, I'm morbidly curious about the worse ways.

Well, there's splitting Shifnal:

1 Oswestry 75527 Yes
2 The Wrekin 75477 Yes
3 Shrewsbury and Atcham 75341 Yes
4 Ludlow 75696 Yes
5 Telford 75231 Yes

Or this:



Giving a ward to Leominster is best I think.

[lancastrian]

Jun 25, 2020 22:10:43 GMT greenhert said:

Finally managed to complete a Yorkshire & Humber plan (ward splits necessary due to the sheer size of wards in West Yorkshire in particular):




Leeds North West (safe Labour)
Elmet & Rothwell (safe Conservative)
Leeds North East (very safe Labour)
Leeds South East (very safe Labour)
Morley (marginal Labour)
Leeds South West (very safe Labour)
Pudsey (semi-marginal Conservative)
Ripon (ultra-safe Conservative)
Skipton & Richmond (ultra-safe Conservative)
Selby & Ainsty (very safe Conservative)
Harrogate & Knaresborough (semi-marginal Conservative)
Thirsk & Northallerton (ultra-safe Conservative)
Malton & Pocklington (ultra-safe Conservative)
York Central (safe Labour)
York Outer (safe Conservative)
Bridlington (very safe Conservative)
Scarborough & Whitby (safe Conservative)
Beverley (very safe Conservative)
Hull West & Haltemprice (marginal Conservative)
Goole & Axholme (very safe Conservative)
Hull North (safe Labour)
Hull South (marginal Labour)
Scunthorpe (marginal Conservative)
Brigg (very safe Conservative)
Grimsby & Cleethorpes (marginal Conservative)
Keighley (marginal Conservative)
Shipley (marginal Conservative)
Bradford East (very safe Labour)
Bradford West (very safe Labour)
Bradford South (safe Labour)
Halifax (marginal Labour)
Calder Valley (semi-marginal Conservative)
Batley & Spen (semi-marginal Labour)
Huddersfield (very safe Labour)
Colne Valley (ultra-marginal Conservative)
Dewsbury & Ossett (marginal Conservative)
Penistone (marginal Labour)
Barnsley East (marginal Labour)
Barnsley Central (safe Labour)
Wakefield & Outwood (semi-marginal Conservative)
Pontefract & Castleford (ultra-marginal Labour)
Hemsworth & Normanton (marginal Labour)
Doncaster North (marginal Conservative)
Doncaster Central (marginal Labour)
Don Valley (ultra-marginal Labour)
Sheffield Hallam (marginal Labour)
Sheffield Hillsborough (marginal Labour)
Sheffield Central (very safe Labour)
Sheffield Brightside (very safe Labour)
Sheffield Heeley (very safe Labour)
Rotherham West (marginal Labour)
Rotherham East (marginal Labour)
Rother Valley & Mosborough (marginal Labour)

Morley and Penistone must have been Tory in December, probably one of the Rother Valley successors as well.

Split wards are ? Presumably Lindley, Horbury & Ossett, South Hunsley(E Yorks), plus one each in Calder Valley, Elmet & Rothwell, Leeds NW, Leeds SE, Sheffield Heeley, Batley & Spen (is this an orphan half-ward in Morley or Bradford South?).

If so many wards are going to be split you may as well use them to avoid linking Leeds and Richmondshire.

[bsjmcr]

Why has it always been 'Don Valley' and not 'Doncaster South' as it should be?

[ilerda]

The area of the modern Doncaster metropolitan borough was originally largely covered by two constituencies - Doncaster and Don Valley.

Doncaster was made up of the municipal borough that only included the town itself, and Don Valley was the rural areas and smaller towns around it. This was common at the time - see Rother Valley (which originally extended to the north of Rotherham around Wentworth), Dearne Valley, Colne Valley etc.

By 1983 populations had shifted so much that the Don Valley seat was too big to include everywhere that wasn’t the core of Doncaster, so parts of it were split off to form Doncaster North. This new seat included areas of urban sprawl that were more like Doncaster itself than rural hinterland, so the name made sense. Also by this point the new metropolitan borough had been created and the Boundary Commission had a bit of a thing for using these names.

I guess Don Valley stuck because it’s historic and sort of still serves its purpose. Although personally I’ve always though splitting the non-central areas East/West rather than North/South would make more sense.

[J.G.Harston]

Jun 25, 2020 22:10:43 GMT greenhert said:

Finally managed to complete a Yorkshire & Humber plan (ward splits necessary due to the sheer size of wards in West Yorkshire in particular):
...
Malton & Pocklington (ultra-safe Conservative)

I think I'd call that Malton & Pickering - and it would match the title of the Landranger map.

[jm]

Jun 26, 2020 6:33:24 GMT ilerda said:

The area of the modern Doncaster metropolitan borough was originally largely covered by two constituencies - Doncaster and Don Valley.

Doncaster was made up of the municipal borough that only included the town itself, and Don Valley was the rural areas and smaller towns around it. This was common at the time - see Rother Valley (which originally extended to the north of Rotherham around Wentworth), Dearne Valley, Colne Valley etc.

By 1983 populations had shifted so much that the Don Valley seat was too big to include everywhere that wasn’t the core of Doncaster, so parts of it were split off to form Doncaster North. This new seat included areas of urban sprawl that were more like Doncaster itself than rural hinterland, so the name made sense. Also by this point the new metropolitan borough had been created and the Boundary Commission had a bit of a thing for using these names.

I guess Don Valley stuck because it’s historic and sort of still serves its purpose. Although personally I’ve always though splitting the non-central areas East/West rather than North/South would make more sense.

The Don Valley constituency covered approximately the same area as the old Doncaster rural district prior to the 1983 election. Doncaster had a very large population for a rural district, by the early 1970s it was over 70,000. At that time the old Thorne rural district was in the Goole constituency. Following local government reforms in the early 70s Thorne had to be moved in with the metropolitan borough as Goole was moved into the new Humberside county. It was added to the new Doncaster North seat along with the former urban districts of Adwick le Street and Bentley with effect from the 1983 election.

There was also a registration district named Don Valley which was created in the early 19th century. As you say, the name has 'stuck' and many of those in the rural hinterlands to the south of Doncaster would much rather be in a seat called 'Don Valley' than 'Doncaster South'. It would be a great shame to loose the name if there ever were to be an east/west split of the borough.

[islington]

Jun 26, 2020 8:21:42 GMT jm said:

Jun 26, 2020 6:33:24 GMT ilerda said:

The area of the modern Doncaster metropolitan borough was originally largely covered by two constituencies - Doncaster and Don Valley.

Doncaster was made up of the municipal borough that only included the town itself, and Don Valley was the rural areas and smaller towns around it. This was common at the time - see Rother Valley (which originally extended to the north of Rotherham around Wentworth), Dearne Valley, Colne Valley etc.

By 1983 populations had shifted so much that the Don Valley seat was too big to include everywhere that wasn’t the core of Doncaster, so parts of it were split off to form Doncaster North. This new seat included areas of urban sprawl that were more like Doncaster itself than rural hinterland, so the name made sense. Also by this point the new metropolitan borough had been created and the Boundary Commission had a bit of a thing for using these names.

I guess Don Valley stuck because it’s historic and sort of still serves its purpose. Although personally I’ve always though splitting the non-central areas East/West rather than North/South would make more sense.

The Don Valley constituency covered approximately the same area as the old Doncaster rural district prior to the 1983 election. Doncaster had a very large population for a rural district, by the early 1970s it was over 70,000. At that time the old Thorne rural district was in the Goole constituency. Following local government reforms in the early 70s Thorne had to be moved in with the metropolitan borough as Goole was moved into the new Humberside county. It was added to the new Doncaster North seat along with the former urban districts of Adwick le Street and Bentley with effect from the 1983 election.

There was also a registration district named Don Valley which was created in the early 19th century. As you say, the name has 'stuck' and many of those in the rural hinterlands to the south of Doncaster would much rather be in a seat called 'Don Valley' than 'Doncaster South'. It would be a great shame to loose the name if there ever were to be an east/west split of the borough.

Maybe, but I imagine the outcome (assuming it still works on the March 2020 numbers) will be minimum change, which means aligning everything to the new ward boundaries and then transferring Edlington from Don Valley to Doncaster C: not an elegant or imaginative approach, and one that leaves Conisbrough somewhat isolated from the rest of Don Valley, but there it is.

Assuming this is the final outcome in terms of boundaries, would it resolve the name issue to everyone's satisfaction to retain the names of Doncaster N and Don Valley and call the other seat Doncaster S?

[ilerda]

Jun 26, 2020 8:21:42 GMT jm said:

Jun 26, 2020 6:33:24 GMT ilerda said:

The area of the modern Doncaster metropolitan borough was originally largely covered by two constituencies - Doncaster and Don Valley.

Doncaster was made up of the municipal borough that only included the town itself, and Don Valley was the rural areas and smaller towns around it. This was common at the time - see Rother Valley (which originally extended to the north of Rotherham around Wentworth), Dearne Valley, Colne Valley etc.

By 1983 populations had shifted so much that the Don Valley seat was too big to include everywhere that wasn’t the core of Doncaster, so parts of it were split off to form Doncaster North. This new seat included areas of urban sprawl that were more like Doncaster itself than rural hinterland, so the name made sense. Also by this point the new metropolitan borough had been created and the Boundary Commission had a bit of a thing for using these names.

I guess Don Valley stuck because it’s historic and sort of still serves its purpose. Although personally I’ve always though splitting the non-central areas East/West rather than North/South would make more sense.

The Don Valley constituency covered approximately the same area as the old Doncaster rural district prior to the 1983 election. Doncaster had a very large population for a rural district, by the early 1970s it was over 70,000. At that time the old Thorne rural district was in the Goole constituency. Following local government reforms in the early 70s Thorne had to be moved in with the metropolitan borough as Goole was moved into the new Humberside county. It was added to the new Doncaster North seat along with the former urban districts of Adwick le Street and Bentley with effect from the 1983 election.

There was also a registration district named Don Valley which was created in the early 19th century. As you say, the name has 'stuck' and many of those in the rural hinterlands to the south of Doncaster would much rather be in a seat called 'Don Valley' than 'Doncaster South'. It would be a great shame to loose the name if there ever were to be an east/west split of the borough.

I agree that it would be a shame to lose such a historic name. But it seems illogical to me for Conisbrough to be in the same constituency as Thorne, but not Mexborough.

I would probably keep the western seat (Mexborough, Consibrough, Sprotborough, Rossington, Finningley) as Don Valley, and then make the eastern and northern fringes out to Hatfield and Thorne a Doncaster East/Doncaster North seat. You could possible even call it just Thorne, if you wanted something more intersting.

[hullenedge]

Jun 25, 2020 21:49:38 GMT edgbaston said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:18:08 GMT hullenedge said:

Not being confrontational but Bradford is a far more sensical borough/district than Kirklees.

And the point is? 

Kirklees is more 'disjointed' than Bradford. There are still the East-West tensions.

Back to boundaries...I wouldn't touch the Bradford constituencies assuming they remain within quota. Much much prefer tinkering of boundaries across West Yorkshire given that our entitlement is likely to stay at 22.

[YL]

Jun 26, 2020 0:39:00 GMT bsjmcr said:

Why has it always been 'Don Valley' and not 'Doncaster South' as it should be?

For the same reason as Prestwich & Radcliffe isn't called "Bury South" ... oh wait.

[islington]

Jun 26, 2020 8:21:42 GMT jm said:

Jun 26, 2020 6:33:24 GMT ilerda said:

The area of the modern Doncaster metropolitan borough was originally largely covered by two constituencies - Doncaster and Don Valley.

Doncaster was made up of the municipal borough that only included the town itself, and Don Valley was the rural areas and smaller towns around it. This was common at the time - see Rother Valley (which originally extended to the north of Rotherham around Wentworth), Dearne Valley, Colne Valley etc.

By 1983 populations had shifted so much that the Don Valley seat was too big to include everywhere that wasn’t the core of Doncaster, so parts of it were split off to form Doncaster North. This new seat included areas of urban sprawl that were more like Doncaster itself than rural hinterland, so the name made sense. Also by this point the new metropolitan borough had been created and the Boundary Commission had a bit of a thing for using these names.

I guess Don Valley stuck because it’s historic and sort of still serves its purpose. Although personally I’ve always though splitting the non-central areas East/West rather than North/South would make more sense.

The Don Valley constituency covered approximately the same area as the old Doncaster rural district prior to the 1983 election. Doncaster had a very large population for a rural district, by the early 1970s it was over 70,000. At that time the old Thorne rural district was in the Goole constituency. Following local government reforms in the early 70s Thorne had to be moved in with the metropolitan borough as Goole was moved into the new Humberside county. It was added to the new Doncaster North seat along with the former urban districts of Adwick le Street and Bentley with effect from the 1983 election.

There was also a registration district named Don Valley which was created in the early 19th century. As you say, the name has 'stuck' and many of those in the rural hinterlands to the south of Doncaster would much rather be in a seat called 'Don Valley' than 'Doncaster South'. It would be a great shame to loose the name if there ever were to be an east/west split of the borough.

For further historic interest, here's a map from VoB showing the very first iteration of Don Valley as it existed 1918-1950 (therefore not quite the same as the later version described by ilerda and jm above).

Three other things I notice from this map are:

• Rother Valley, also in its first iteration here, penetrated quite a long way into south eastern Sheffield.
• Ossett has somehow attached itself as a dangling appendage to the Batley and Morley seat.
  
• The boundary between Rotherham and Wentworth in the Thorpe Hesley area is an absolute beaut; can anyone with local knowledge cast light on this?
  

www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/sheet/os_maps_revised_1944/Yorkshire_West_Riding_1931_1944

[greenhert]

Jun 26, 2020 6:45:07 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Jun 25, 2020 22:10:43 GMT greenhert said:

Finally managed to complete a Yorkshire & Humber plan (ward splits necessary due to the sheer size of wards in West Yorkshire in particular):
...
Malton & Pocklington (ultra-safe Conservative)

I think I'd call that Malton & Pickering - and it would match the title of the Landranger map.

Pocklington is in East Yorkshire and Malton is in North Yorkshire, hence why I chose that name to acknowledge the fact it contains significant parts of two local authorities.