johng
Labour
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Post by johng on Nov 24, 2019 16:40:16 GMT
Polls have closed in Hong Kong for the district council elections.
Turnout back in 2015 was 47.01% and turnout for this election appears to be 69.04%. The number of people registered to vote also surged from 3,131,763 to 4,132,977 this time.
It's the largest vote ever in Hong Kong. Both huge increases which shows the anger in the city.
There's already been quite a bit of controversy. - Elderly people being bussed to polling stations and going straight to the front of hour-long queues. Perhaps not controversial until you consider that the pro-Beijing candidates are paying for the buses to collect them and are then taking them to restaurants after voting...
- Numerous cases of open bribery of voters who claim they voted a certain way. This has always happened there though. (For those that don't know, it's usually odd stuff like a 10kg bag of rice or a carrier bag full of tins from the supermarket and dried fruit).
- Riot police taking full ballot boxes in polling stations claiming they are from prisons and hospitals. The problem being the police don't operate prisons and there's no legal avenue for people to vote anywhere other than a registered polling station meaning it's not legal to vote at a hospital.
Last time, Pro-Beijing candidates took 54.61% of the vote of pro-democracy parties took 40.20%. They also took control of every district council. There's a strong feeling that pro-democracy candidates will take most votes this time, I'm not so sure though.
Hong Kong counts overnight and results should be out within 8 hours or so.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 24, 2019 17:16:59 GMT
China will rig it. They won't let Hong Kong go, it's too important to Communist prestige and China's national psyche. It was the sign that the humiliation of the Opium Wars was over. It's just too important.
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johng
Labour
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Post by johng on Nov 24, 2019 17:38:19 GMT
Final turnout figure is 71.2%. That's the highest turnout ever, in any election, in Hong Kong. In 2015, 1.46 million voted. This time round 2.94 million have voted. I wonder whether the democrats have done it. No very good site in English to see the results. The SCMP has a live blog though which is reasonable. www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3039132/results-blog |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Nov 24, 2019 18:21:08 GMT
China will rig it. They won't let Hong Kong go, it's too important to Communist prestige and China's national psyche. It was the sign that the humiliation of the Opium Wars was over. It's just too important. Apparently, they failed to rig it (probably the lack of experience in votes). |
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Post by leon on Nov 24, 2019 18:26:55 GMT
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 24, 2019 18:38:32 GMT
China will rig it. They won't let Hong Kong go, it's too important to Communist prestige and China's national psyche. It was the sign that the humiliation of the Opium Wars was over. It's just too important. Apparently, they failed to rig it (probably the lack of experience in votes). Also, they know that the current arrangements are temporary, and all they have to do is keep the lid on protests, knowing that in time the temporary arrangements will cease in any case. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 24, 2019 21:16:46 GMT
I'm more than happy to have been proven wrong on this.
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 24, 2019 21:29:08 GMT
I'm more than happy to have been proven wrong on this. Unaligned never likely to thrive in that political atmosphere... |
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johng
Labour
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Post by johng on Nov 24, 2019 23:17:42 GMT
The Democrats have absolutely stormed this election. Check out this link: dce2019.thestandnews.com/Solid red means pro-Beijing hold and solid yellow pro-democracy hold. But just look how many yellow squares there are with a small red triangle on the bottom left - they are all of the pro-democracy gains. There are currently no pro-Beijing gains. I couldn't be happier for those who support democracy as the gov's handling (or lack thereof) of the current crisis has been appalling. For those who are interested in ethnic diversity, HK's only non-Chinese (ethnically - you must be a citizen to stand) councillor has held his seat in Pokfulam (pro-democracy obviously). On Beijing, there's not long to go until 2047, but they are impatient and see the need to 'harmonize' Hong Kong with the rest of the country. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Nov 24, 2019 23:20:58 GMT
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johng
Labour
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Post by johng on Nov 25, 2019 0:13:57 GMT
Looks like some individuals longing for a colonial master that has abandoned them. Sad really.
Good news is that pro-democracy parties have won a majority in every district except the islands district.
Well, they have won all of them, but the Islands District Council has 8 ex-officio members who are all pro-Beijing. There are only 10 elected members and the pro-Beijing camp has won 3 giving them a majority of 11-7.
Much better to a cllr in Hong Kong than Britain too. They receive a salary of £3400 a month.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 25, 2019 2:39:29 GMT
The Democrats have absolutely stormed this election. Check out this link: dce2019.thestandnews.com/Solid red means pro-Beijing hold and solid yellow pro-democracy hold. But just look how many yellow squares there are with a small red triangle on the bottom left - they are all of the pro-democracy gains. There are currently no pro-Beijing gains. It also has implications for next year's Legislative elections, as District Councillors form one of the constituencies. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 25, 2019 9:11:24 GMT
It may mean Beijing replace Carrie Lam after a suitable period of time, but they don't have that long to wait until HK is fully integrated - just a matter of treading water in the meantime.
Its interesting that while we certainly didn't leave HK with anything like democracy, the extended colonial presence has certainly dislodged the Confucian influence which is, and remains, far more important to understanding the national psyche of China than anything related to Marx, which Chinese people know absolutely nothing about, from my limited experience (visiting and teaching)
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 25, 2019 11:07:38 GMT
It may mean Beijing replace Carrie Lam after a suitable period of time, but they don't have that long to wait until HK is fully integrated - just a matter of treading water in the meantime. Its interesting that while we certainly didn't leave HK with anything like democracy, the extended colonial presence has certainly dislodged the Confucian influence which is, and remains, far more important to understanding the national psyche of China than anything related to Marx, which Chinese people know absolutely nothing about, from my limited experience (visiting and teaching) District councillors also form a bloc in the panel that elects the Chief Executive, so China could just let Lam get voted out. And, the UK did leave Hong Kong with something like democracy. Certainly the district council elections are more than an election-type event, though an average of two candidates for each vacancy looks a bit undeveloped - or arranged. There is usually a "Remain Alliance" sort of arrangement among the Pan-Democrats, whereas the pro-Beijing bloc tend towards the Pocket Borough tendency. And the results of the elections will make next year's LegCo elections less of an election-type event. It's still quite a bit pre-1832 but not much. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 25, 2019 11:15:04 GMT
It may mean Beijing replace Carrie Lam after a suitable period of time, but they don't have that long to wait until HK is fully integrated - just a matter of treading water in the meantime. Its interesting that while we certainly didn't leave HK with anything like democracy, the extended colonial presence has certainly dislodged the Confucian influence which is, and remains, far more important to understanding the national psyche of China than anything related to Marx, which Chinese people know absolutely nothing about, from my limited experience (visiting and teaching) District councillors also form a bloc in the panel that elects the Chief Executive, so China could just let Lam get voted out. And, the UK did leave Hong Kong with something like democracy. Certainly the district council elections are more than an election-type event, though an average of two candidates for each vacancy looks a bit undeveloped - or arranged. There is usually a "Remain Alliance" sort of arrangement among the Pan-Democrats, whereas the pro-Beijing bloc tend towards the Pocket Borough tendency. And the results of the elections will make next year's LegCo elections less of an election-type event. It's still quite a bit pre-1832 but not much. They have very little power, though I simply don't see the Chinese government allowing a Western-style democracy as part of its country, and in handing HK back to China with a limited arrangement, we recognised that too. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 25, 2019 11:23:50 GMT
District councillors also form a bloc in the panel that elects the Chief Executive, so China could just let Lam get voted out. And, the UK did leave Hong Kong with something like democracy. Certainly the district council elections are more than an election-type event, though an average of two candidates for each vacancy looks a bit undeveloped - or arranged. There is usually a "Remain Alliance" sort of arrangement among the Pan-Democrats, whereas the pro-Beijing bloc tend towards the Pocket Borough tendency. And the results of the elections will make next year's LegCo elections less of an election-type event. It's still quite a bit pre-1832 but not much. They have very little power, though I simply don't see the Chinese government allowing a Western-style democracy as part of its country, and in handing HK back to China with a limited arrangement, we recognised that too. Yes, I don't see the system progressing past 1832. The aim is for Hong Kong to be "just another" Chinese city, just another part of the Pearl River Delta metropolitan area. If Beijing had had the patience to wait another 20 years it would have slipped into place with few grounds to complain. 50 years of One Country Two Systems seemed like forever in 1984, but we're almost halfway there now. People are asking "2047... and then what?" Who's going to commit to a 30-year mortgage or a 50-year land lease? |
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Khunanup
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Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 25, 2019 11:30:29 GMT
District councillors also form a bloc in the panel that elects the Chief Executive, so China could just let Lam get voted out. And, the UK did leave Hong Kong with something like democracy. Certainly the district council elections are more than an election-type event, though an average of two candidates for each vacancy looks a bit undeveloped - or arranged. There is usually a "Remain Alliance" sort of arrangement among the Pan-Democrats, whereas the pro-Beijing bloc tend towards the Pocket Borough tendency. And the results of the elections will make next year's LegCo elections less of an election-type event. It's still quite a bit pre-1832 but not much. They have very little power, though I simply don't see the Chinese government allowing a Western-style democracy as part of its country, and in handing HK back to China with a limited arrangement, we recognised that too. China have completely misplayed their hand with Hong Kong. They're going to have a full scale rebellion on their hands as it's clear that they have utterly failed to pacify Hong Kong and bring them round to their way if governance over the last 22 years and if anything the doubling down on oppression on the mainland is alienating the SAR ever more. Hong Kong will not go lying down and I expect there either to be an invasion by the PLA before 2047 (and that is a can of worms no-one wants to open) or we get to it and Hong Kongers will not accept their freedoms being stripped from them, which would have much the same result. Mostly, it depends what happens on the Mainland. I think if China's growth starts to slow year on year then that could be a catalyst to change, and at least move away from ever increasing oppression & state control. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 25, 2019 11:46:55 GMT
They have very little power, though I simply don't see the Chinese government allowing a Western-style democracy as part of its country, and in handing HK back to China with a limited arrangement, we recognised that too. China have completely misplayed their hand with Hong Kong. They're going to have a full scale rebellion on their hands as it's clear that they have utterly failed to pacify Hong Kong and bring them round to their way if governance over the last 22 years and if anything the doubling down on oppression on the mainland is alienating the SAR ever more. Hong Kong will not go lying down and I expect there either to be an invasion by the PLA before 2047 (and that is a can of worms no-one wants to open) or we get to it and Hong Kongers will not accept their freedoms being stripped from them, which would have much the same result. Mostly, it depends what happens on the Mainland. I think if China's growth starts to slow year on year then that could be a catalyst to change, and at least move away from ever increasing oppression & state control. I think you are taking a very western, individualist perspective When China started to liberalise economically (it is far from marxist, no matter what definition you use!) there was an assumption that greater social and political liberalism would follow There is very little evidence for this, but I think it has far more to do with Chinese traditions - a bit like how we find it bizarre that Putin is actually popular in Russia, and the nationalist strongman appealing to notions of the motherland is of much more appeal that 'demoicracy', which was tried under Yeltsin, but they weren't impressed.... Individualist western liberalism is not an inevitability or anything hardwired into humanity. We take it for granted that it is better and that other people will want it, given the choice. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 25, 2019 12:42:53 GMT
Whilst not everyone wants liberal democracy, we take it for granted that it's better because it is. Liberal democracy is the kindest and most decent form of government that we, as humans, can form.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 25, 2019 13:11:33 GMT
Whilst not everyone wants liberal democracy, we take it for granted that it's better because it is. Liberal democracy is the kindest and most decent form of government that we, as humans, can form. Thats how you see it, but then you are western. Others without the same background and socialisation may find the idea of prioritising individualism, for example, very curious indeed. Therefore you are making a value judgment based on your own outlook and experience. You may be right, but that doesn't mean that others will see things in the same way. The Whiggish view of history, that everything would continue to get better and better and progress along a pre-set path , was every bit as prescriptive as Marxism, but no more accurate! |
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