J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,651
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 15, 2020 20:46:59 GMT
I'm not really sure how you get piles of votes for each candidate without either manually counting them or using electronic counting. You use mechanical counting. It can even be hand cranked, it's still mechanical counting. Attach that to the paper feeder from a Banda printer and the human-powered hand crank. Mechanical counter. No electronics, no electrics. In fact, Banda printers *already* *come* *with* *a* *counter*. So, just imagine a Banda printer, *but* *not* *printing*. Add an electric motor for non-human-powered counting. Still no electronics, and crucially, no computers, no programming, no computer code.
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Post by Wisconsin on Aug 15, 2020 20:48:46 GMT
I like the hand-drawn map the NK Independents used in their submission to the LGBCE.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 15, 2020 21:03:01 GMT
I've said this before but I really don't think the count is the biggest problem in resuming by-elections. The nomination process, leaflet delivery, canvassing and GOTV operations are far more problematic. Can't see how leaflet delivery is really a problem. There is no contact involved. Canvassing and GOTV are not really essential bearing in mind we are talking about council by elections here. The nominations process may be a little challenging. Having said that, 10 people managed to call a town council by election in Portland this week so its not insurmountable. D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 15, 2020 21:05:13 GMT
Can't see how leaflet delivery is really a problem. There is no contact involved. Canvassing and GOTV are not really essential bearing in mind we are talking about council by elections here. The nominations process may be a little challenging. Having said that, 10 people managed to call a town council by election in Portland this week so its not insurmountable. D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low.
Most leaflets come by Royal Mail nowadays, so whats the problem?
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 15, 2020 21:12:02 GMT
People in councils, government and political parties need to start to look for solutions not obstacles, or people like me in the general public will start to assume that councils, government and parties don't want representative democracy but rather would prefer to keep, at all levels the already elected political cronies; that they believe backhander deals are better than democracy. Not got to that view yet, but if they put elections off for too long, I will think this.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,651
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 15, 2020 21:30:01 GMT
The London Mayor & Assembly elections use electronic counting but every time it takes far longer than predicted and we get the Mayor and list confirmed in the small hours of Saturday. Do they, or do they use electro-mechanical counting?
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,061
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Post by peterl on Aug 15, 2020 21:38:30 GMT
Can't see how leaflet delivery is really a problem. There is no contact involved. Canvassing and GOTV are not really essential bearing in mind we are talking about council by elections here. The nominations process may be a little challenging. Having said that, 10 people managed to call a town council by election in Portland this week so its not insurmountable. D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low. At some point, elections will have to start again. When would you suggest that is? What if the situation has not been completely resolved by next May. Another year? Two years? Five years? How many empty seats will there be by then?
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,651
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 15, 2020 21:46:11 GMT
D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low. Most leaflets come by Royal Mail nowadays, so whats the problem? Not election leaflets, not with the twins of no money to pay for the postage, and smashing straight through the spending limits if you do. And in my experience, at least half the rest of my post is not delivered by the Royal Mail. The Whitby Advertiser is delivered by the chap who delivers the Advertiser, and he delivers more than half the rest of the leaflets with it.
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Post by timrollpickering on Aug 15, 2020 22:28:05 GMT
The London Mayor & Assembly elections use electronic counting but every time it takes far longer than predicted and we get the Mayor and list confirmed in the small hours of Saturday. Do they, or do they use electro-mechanical counting? The ballot papers are scanned with a lot of manual adjudication of uncertains done on computer screens.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 16, 2020 5:38:36 GMT
Telephone canvassing and persuading in lieu of leaflets and door knocking is a solution.
All candidates interviewed on local radio and in the local rag is a solution
Counting 1 ward at a time is a solution to reduce staffing, even only one polling station at a time is a solution. If it takes 2 weeks to get all results so be it.
Masks and social Distancing at poll are a solution, to protect poll officers.
Polling over 3 or 4 days is a solution to reduce contact. Either let people come as they like or by surname A-F on day 1 G- on day 2 etc.
Having people nominated who will observe all counting, as a short term measure. Candidates and agents may not see the count but someone knowledgeable and available they trust will. If we count 1 box at a time it will take time but they will not be running around a lot but sitting at a Socially sensible distance at which they can still observe.
Voting one ward a week is a solution, why do they all need to be on one day in May. You can count in smaller rooms more isolated rooms this way.
Promoting postal and proxy voting now is a solution, for when the elections happen. If people are to afraid to go out to the poll at least they have had a chance to register and get a postal vote.
Its is really not difficult to do if you want to.
But do councils, government and our political parties really want to do it?
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,600
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 16, 2020 9:57:20 GMT
D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low. At some point, elections will have to start again. When would you suggest that is? What if the situation has not been completely resolved by next May. Another year? Two years? Five years? How many empty seats will there be by then? Yes, we need to take the mindset that elections *will* happen next May whatever happens. And do everything possible to fit in at least some by-elections before then.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,651
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 16, 2020 9:58:53 GMT
Having people nominated who will observe all counting, as a short term measure. Candidates and agents may not see the count but someone knowledgeable and available they trust will. If we count 1 box at a time it will take time but they will not be running around a lot but sitting at a Socially sensible distance at which they can still observe. We already have people nominated to observe the count - the agent and a couple of others. It's not as much somebody who I can trust to observe the count, it needs to be somebody who I know knows how to observe the count. If after the count I ask them "where's your count tallies" and they say "what count tallies?" I'm going to punch them. Which is why ***I*** have to be at the count to supervise the other people I have nominated to be at the count to ensure they are a) *taking* count tallies and b) taking them correctly. It only takes a few minutes to train people to take count tallies, but almost always it needs to be done on the floor during an actual count as it seems really difficult to get people to understand what the process is without it actually happening in front of their eyes.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 16, 2020 11:43:02 GMT
D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low. Most leaflets come by Royal Mail nowadays, so whats the problem? Not round here they don't and of the c.250,000 local election leaflets I've been responsible for over the years I think fewer than 20 have been handled by Royal Mail. Are you thinking of the parliamentary election Freepost?
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 16, 2020 11:46:49 GMT
D'you think volunteers are going to be queueing up to negotiate hundreds of gates and letterboxes? D'you think all electors will welcome unsolicited mail? I would suggest canvassing and GOTV are more important at council by-elections since turnouts are generally low. At some point, elections will have to start again. When would you suggest that is? What if the situation has not been completely resolved by next May. Another year? Two years? Five years? How many empty seats will there be by then? I've no idea. But holding competitive local by-elections currently would be extremely difficult. (And not because of the count.) One practical option would be to extend the Freepost facility to local by-elections given the current circumstances. I also believe it should be possible to restart by-elections before May 2021.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 16, 2020 11:49:35 GMT
Telephone canvassing and persuading in lieu of leaflets and door knocking is a solution. Not in the age of TPS, thin phonebooks, mobiles and GDPR it isn't.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 16, 2020 11:57:57 GMT
Having people nominated who will observe all counting, as a short term measure. Candidates and agents may not see the count but someone knowledgeable and available they trust will. If we count 1 box at a time it will take time but they will not be running around a lot but sitting at a Socially sensible distance at which they can still observe. We already have people nominated to observe the count - the agent and a couple of others. It's not as much somebody who I can trust to observe the count, it needs to be somebody who I know knows how to observe the count. If after the count I ask them "where's your count tallies" and they say "what count tallies?" I'm going to punch them. Which is why ***I*** have to be at the count to supervise the other people I have nominated to be at the count to ensure they are a) *taking* count tallies and b) taking them correctly. It only takes a few minutes to train people to take count tallies, but almost always it needs to be done on the floor during an actual count as it seems really difficult to get people to understand what the process is without it actually happening in front of their eyes. And, I will repeat, the count really isn't the problem - especially for local by-elections. (My experience is largely around District & County by-elections and what I am about to suggest may not work for those massive city wards) One long table. Masks to be (properly) worn. The number of counters = the number of candidates (if 3 or more). They are placed well apart. Each will have two observers, suitably distanced. Verify as normal, then count as normal. So, if there are 3 candidates they each have two counting agents (who may be the candidate or agent). And can monitor two-thirds of the counters. Sorted.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 16, 2020 12:28:43 GMT
Having people nominated who will observe all counting, as a short term measure. Candidates and agents may not see the count but someone knowledgeable and available they trust will. If we count 1 box at a time it will take time but they will not be running around a lot but sitting at a Socially sensible distance at which they can still observe. We already have people nominated to observe the count - the agent and a couple of others. It's not as much somebody who I can trust to observe the count, it needs to be somebody who I know knows how to observe the count. If after the count I ask them "where's your count tallies" and they say "what count tallies?" I'm going to punch them. Which is why ***I*** have to be at the count to supervise the other people I have nominated to be at the count to ensure they are a) *taking* count tallies and b) taking them correctly. It only takes a few minutes to train people to take count tallies, but almost always it needs to be done on the floor during an actual count as it seems really difficult to get people to understand what the process is without it actually happening in front of their eyes.
I don't disagree with that, by trust I also meant knowledgable and who can provide the info parties want..
Personally I don't see why each agent and candidate must be there. For Sheffield I don't see why 1 group of trusted knowledgeable people can't count every single box in the city. Ok it'd take more time but move us forward with least risk.
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Post by londonseal80 on Aug 16, 2020 12:29:28 GMT
I don’t know the area well but had a few thoughts: The new Beam Park ward looks interesting, who would that help? Brooklands ward might be a might more favourable to Labour now that it is largely the area along the main road between Chadwell Heath and Romford? My guess would be that in most places in London new housing will tend to be more favourable to Labour (as the occupants will be younger and there are reasonably high levels of affordable housing in most new developments.) However, even if the general principle holds, it rather depends on how much of it has been built out by 2022 - if the electorate is still quite low, it'll probably vote more like the area does now. Brooklands looks to have been Labour's best ward in Romford in 2018 and the boundary changes aren't that extensive, but whether that's enough I don't know. Either of the two Romford Town wards might also be competitive for the same reasons as Beam Park. But that's all guesswork. Conversley I can see Labour losing votes in Gooshays depending on what and how many right wing splinter groups stand. Both Democrats and Veterans Party and For Britain Party have strong vote potential in this ward if they stand.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 16, 2020 12:29:57 GMT
Most leaflets come by Royal Mail nowadays, so whats the problem? Not round here they don't and of the c.250,000 local election leaflets I've been responsible for over the years I think fewer than 20 have been handled by Royal Mail. Are you thinking of the parliamentary election Freepost? Probably
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 16, 2020 12:31:42 GMT
Telephone canvassing and persuading in lieu of leaflets and door knocking is a solution. Not in the age of TPS, thin phonebooks, mobiles and GDPR it isn't.
Well inovate. Write blogs that go viral, get the megaphone van back out, etc etc
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