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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 14, 2020 12:54:09 GMT
Scotland is also the country that created the modern world. The West owes its premiere position to two countries, Classical Greece and Scotland. People in England, my homeland too, shouldn't forget that. It had an input out of proportio to size without doubt, but to say the West owes all mainly to Greece and Scotland is wildly absurd as only a short reflection on history will reveal. Think about Germany/Austria, Russia, Italy and France. Think again. Now make the same statement with a straight face? And there is England. The England of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Agriculture, Tin, Wool, Coal, Railways, Oak, Country Houses, Churches, the Novel, Poetry and Music. The Navy, the Empire the English Pound Sterling, London. Come off it, Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔.
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Oct 14, 2020 13:44:52 GMT
I don't understand what the Scots see in Nicola Sturgeon but most of them obviously think she's fantastic and Scottish independence is looking very likely. The fact she’s not Boris Johnson maybe? ^ this, basically. It's a pretty low bar which she clears relatively easily. At the moment the Westminster government gives the double bonus of being completely and utterly incompetent whilst also being obviously contemptuous of devolution and the devolved institutions. As a nationalist you don't need to be particularly skilled to make political hay with that...
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polupolu
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Post by polupolu on Oct 14, 2020 13:45:49 GMT
It had an input out of proportio to size without doubt, but to say the West owes all mainly to Greece and Scotland is wildly absurd as only a short reflection on history will reveal. Think about Germany/Austria, Russia, Italy and France. Think again. Now make the same statement with a straight face? And there is England. The England of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Agriculture, Tin, Wool, Coal, Railways, Oak, Country Houses, Churches, the Novel, Poetry and Music. The Navy, the Empire the English Pound Sterling, London. Come off it, Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔. Is this discussion worth its own thread?
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Oct 14, 2020 13:50:37 GMT
Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔. Is this discussion worth its own thread? Probably not 😉, but it will probably get one anyway...
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 13:52:45 GMT
The fact she’s not Boris Johnson maybe? Maybe they'd be slightly happier with Rishi Sunak as PM. Preach 👏👏👏
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Post by bigfatron on Oct 14, 2020 13:53:52 GMT
Jollyroger93 and TheBishop get the prize! Well deduced...
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 13:54:05 GMT
The fact she’s not Boris Johnson maybe? ^ this, basically. It's a pretty low bar which she clears relatively easily. At the moment the Westminster government gives the double bonus of being completely and utterly incompetent whilst also being obviously contemptuous of devolution and the devolved institutions. As a nationalist you don't need to be particularly skilled to make political hay with that... Exactly, I think with a different PM a more unionist approach and a better dealing with the economic fallout and public health drama, I would expect No to be in the lead
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polupolu
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Post by polupolu on Oct 14, 2020 13:59:27 GMT
^ this, basically. It's a pretty low bar which she clears relatively easily. At the moment the Westminster government gives the double bonus of being completely and utterly incompetent whilst also being obviously contemptuous of devolution and the devolved institutions. As a nationalist you don't need to be particularly skilled to make political hay with that... Exactly, I think with a different PM a more unionist approach and a better dealing with the economic fallout and public health drama, I would expect No to be in the lead Boris, Boris Boris; Out, Out, Out ?
(for those of you you were around in the 80's)
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 14, 2020 14:01:49 GMT
Ipsos-MORI is - perhaps by default but where are where we are - one of the better firms GB-wide, but its Scottish polling has often been... er... less good. Which isn't to say 'ignore it; nothing to worry about really', but is to say 'caution'.
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 14, 2020 14:02:17 GMT
It had an input out of proportio to size without doubt, but to say the West owes all mainly to Greece and Scotland is wildly absurd as only a short reflection on history will reveal. Think about Germany/Austria, Russia, Italy and France. Think again. Now make the same statement with a straight face? And there is England. The England of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Agriculture, Tin, Wool, Coal, Railways, Oak, Country Houses, Churches, the Novel, Poetry and Music. The Navy, the Empire the English Pound Sterling, London. Come off it, Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔. David! David!! I like you. You are one of 'Us'. I like many of your posts. For one studying history I fear that the opinions are shallow, biased and show a very obvious lack of deep reading across the subject of comparative history. The subject consists in an evaluation of power, miltary might, political acts, cultural shifts, societal progress, economic progress, agricultural improvement, expoitation of resouces, development of ideas and many more influences. For me the West is grounded in these factors Greek thought, literary modes, political theory and basic mathematics/geometry and architecture Arabic scripts, letters/alphabet, mathematics, thought, algebra, mathematics Roman law, roads, maps, literature, political theory, engineering military tactics and architecture Christianity Catholicism Bureaucracy Thomism Scholasticism Architecture Morality Agricultural improvement=suplus=economic capital=surplus labour Naval power=sea lanes=foreign conquest=empire=dominant trade=dominant currency Tin Coal Wool Oak =economic suplus=economic capital=economic power That provided the background to everything. That is the base structure to it all. It is empirical in the use of the best of the past to structure a better future. It is about what is discarded as much as what is embraced. It is about the shift out of dependence on fishing and farming to massive suplus, trading, freeing up labour, education, and progress in all fields. Your conspectus is shallow, trite and narrow. Scotland contributed but was never the answer to anything. In a list of 1000 prime causes it would not feature at all.
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Eastwood
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Post by Eastwood on Oct 14, 2020 14:07:29 GMT
It had an input out of proportio to size without doubt, but to say the West owes all mainly to Greece and Scotland is wildly absurd as only a short reflection on history will reveal. Think about Germany/Austria, Russia, Italy and France. Think again. Now make the same statement with a straight face? And there is England. The England of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Agriculture, Tin, Wool, Coal, Railways, Oak, Country Houses, Churches, the Novel, Poetry and Music. The Navy, the Empire the English Pound Sterling, London. Come off it, Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔. So basically you’re saying that this makes carlton43 Hitler in Tights?
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 14, 2020 14:58:39 GMT
Where would England and Germany be without Adam Smith and David Hume? Dead or sick probably, because we wouldn't have had Fleming or Alexander Cumming😜. Television, the steam engine, the telephone, the foundation of modern science. Sure, Germany and Austria all had parts to play, but Einstein, for example, was greatly influenced by Hume. I doubt he'd have achieved what he did without him. Also, do you really think that if China or Japan had discovered the above, we'd have achieved the dominance we did by the end of the last century? I'd also dispute your assertion that Russia is Western, it simply isn't. Under Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, they tried to move in that direction. The Nineteenth Century Romanovs and the Communists have firmly alienated Russia from us, probably forever. Italy is an interesting one, Renaissance Italy certainly has a role to play, but Rome, their earlier work if you will 😅, doesn't in the way people think it does in my view. Antiquity was a vastly different world, almost like a different planet, and it just can't be compared to the present. Today, it's hard to imagine a world where Syria or Libya is more integrated into Greater Europe, so to speak, than we are. My view is revisionist to some extent, but I can make an argument for it🤔. David! David!! I like you. You are one of 'Us'. I like many of your posts. For one studying history I fear that the opinions are shallow, biased and show a very obvious lack of deep reading across the subject of comparative history. The subject consists in an evaluation of power, miltary might, political acts, cultural shifts, societal progress, economic progress, agricultural improvement, expoitation of resouces, development of ideas and many more influences. For me the West is grounded in these factors Greek thought, literary modes, political theory and basic mathematics/geometry and architecture Arabic scripts, letters/alphabet, mathematics, thought, algebra, mathematics Roman law, roads, maps, literature, political theory, engineering military tactics and architecture Christianity Catholicism Bureaucracy Thomism Scholasticism Architecture Morality Agricultural improvement=suplus=economic capital=surplus labour Naval power=sea lanes=foreign conquest=empire=dominant trade=dominant currency Tin Coal Wool Oak =economic suplus=economic capital=economic power That provided the background to everything. That is the base structure to it all. It is empirical in the use of the best of the past to structure a better future. It is about what is discarded as much as what is embraced. It is about the shift out of dependence on fishing and farming to massive suplus, trading, freeing up labour, education, and progress in all fields. Your conspectus is shallow, trite and narrow. Scotland contributed but was never the answer to anything. In a list of 1000 prime causes it would not feature at all. I simply don't agree with that. I think Adam Smith, to take an example, is vastly under rated. As it happens, when I get back from Sainsbury's I'm doing some comparative history. As you say, I am in year two of a four year degree, my views will undoubtedly change on these debates in the next two. As it stands, this is my view.
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polupolu
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Post by polupolu on Oct 14, 2020 15:21:01 GMT
David! David!! I like you. You are one of 'Us'. I like many of your posts. For one studying history I fear that the opinions are shallow, biased and show a very obvious lack of deep reading across the subject of comparative history. The subject consists in an evaluation of power, miltary might, political acts, cultural shifts, societal progress, economic progress, agricultural improvement, expoitation of resouces, development of ideas and many more influences. For me the West is grounded in these factors Greek thought, literary modes, political theory and basic mathematics/geometry and architecture Arabic scripts, letters/alphabet, mathematics, thought, algebra, mathematics Roman law, roads, maps, literature, political theory, engineering military tactics and architecture Christianity Catholicism Bureaucracy Thomism Scholasticism Architecture Morality Agricultural improvement=suplus=economic capital=surplus labour Naval power=sea lanes=foreign conquest=empire=dominant trade=dominant currency Tin Coal Wool Oak =economic suplus=economic capital=economic power That provided the background to everything. That is the base structure to it all. It is empirical in the use of the best of the past to structure a better future. It is about what is discarded as much as what is embraced. It is about the shift out of dependence on fishing and farming to massive suplus, trading, freeing up labour, education, and progress in all fields. Your conspectus is shallow, trite and narrow. Scotland contributed but was never the answer to anything. In a list of 1000 prime causes it would not feature at all. I simply don't agree with that. I think Adam Smith, to take an example, is vastly under rated. As it happens, when I get back from Sainsbury's I'm doing some comparative history. As you say, I am in year two of a four year degree, my views will undoubtedly change on these debates in the next two. As it stands, this is my view. Add another name in support of David's position: James Hutton "the father of modern Geology", Edinburgh born Geology may seem irrelevant, but his work was instrumental in showing how old the Earth was which undermined any literal interpretation of the bible (probably a prerequisite for scientific progress and the modern world). On the other hand, depending on your definition of "modern", you might want to add to your list of important countrie the Iberian navigators and explorers, or the Dutch (don't forget, England lost the second and third Anglo-Dutch naval wars against the Dutch, if naval power is one of your important factors...). Another thing to consider in terms of the modern world is the invention and development of banking (which initially permited increased trade which led to there being capital, rather more directly than improvements to agriculture in terms of the availability of capital) and was invented in Northern Italy and Southern Germany (the Fuggers) Contrariwise, I don't think I would include Scholasticism in this list. It was central to medieval life, rather than being anything to do with the creation of the modern world.
But one other thought perhaps pertinent to these times... An important factor in the disruption of Feudalism (with all sorts of concomitant effects) was the black death. This massively changed the barganing power of the labouring classes (due to there being fewer of them) and tore away the keystone of the system where serfs were tied to the land.
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Post by tamar on Oct 14, 2020 15:36:39 GMT
Ipsos-MORI is - perhaps by default but where are where we are - one of the better firms GB-wide, but its Scottish polling has often been... er... less good. Which isn't to say 'ignore it; nothing to worry about really', but is to say 'caution'. To add to this, Ipsos-MORI have often overshot in the last decade in a pro-SNP/independence direction. Unless other pollsters start suggesting similarly huge leads for Yes, I would treat this more as confirmation of the broad trend towards not overly strong but nevertheless fairly clear leads for Yes we have observed since the last GE.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Oct 14, 2020 16:15:54 GMT
Scotland being a foundation stone of the western world as David would have it, I'm sorry but its a load of Haggises running around a Scottish field and it reenforces the English's idea that the Scots have their heads so far up their arses that they can see their intestines.
Scotland hasn't existed as a seperate political entity for centuries so saying it alone is one of the two planks of the western world is laughable. Britain has had a major impact on the West but I wouldn't go as far as to make the claim about it David does for Scotland. Yes Scots have had an intellectual impact, greater than their numbers probably, on the Britain and through Britain on the West; but not Scotland the nation.
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 16:18:32 GMT
Ipsos-MORI is - perhaps by default but where are where we are - one of the better firms GB-wide, but its Scottish polling has often been... er... less good. Which isn't to say 'ignore it; nothing to worry about really', but is to say 'caution'. To add to this, Ipsos-MORI have often overshot in the last decade in a pro-SNP/independence direction. Unless other pollsters start suggesting similarly huge leads for Yes, I would treat this more as confirmation of the broad trend towards not overly strong but nevertheless fairly clear leads for Yes we have observed since the last GE. Comres who had a poll done at the same time as this poll had figures 53% to 47% a 1% swing to favour of no from there last poll.
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 14, 2020 16:24:35 GMT
Scotland being a foundation stone of the western world as David would have it, I'm sorry but its a load of Haggises running around a Scottish field and it reenforces the English's idea that the Scots have their heads so far up their arses that they can see their intestines. Scotland hasn't existed as a seperate political entity for centuries so saying it alone is one of the two planks of the western world is laughable. Britain has had a major impact on the West but I wouldn't go as far as to make the claim about it David does for Scotland. Yes Scots have had an intellectual impact, greater than their numbers probably, on the Britain and through Britain on the West; but not Scotland the nation. Agreed. It is such a stupid proposition that I can't be bothered to argue it further. And proposed by a history student of 2-years standing. That is a serious concern!
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middyman
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Post by middyman on Oct 14, 2020 16:43:19 GMT
I feel sorry for the Scots. They are being duped by a power-crazed party into believing that the grass really is greener on the other side when, in fact, it is threadbare and infested with weeds. It they do vote for independence it would be an act of immense self-harm and folly but if they do, I would not seek to stand in their way. There is no point trying to keep an unwilling guest in your house.
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fourringcircus
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Post by fourringcircus on Oct 14, 2020 16:55:11 GMT
There is no point trying to keep an unwilling guest in your house. Therein lies the root of the problem. It's not your house and we pay more than our fair share of the bills. In light of the 'now is not the time' argument, we are not even a guest, as we are obviously not free to leave. Therefore, we are a paying prisoner, locked in a bedroom with our credit card being abused by a third party.
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 17:01:30 GMT
There is no point trying to keep an unwilling guest in your house. Therein lies the root of the problem. It's not your house and we pay more than our fair share of the bills. In light of the 'now is not the time' argument, we are not even a guest, as we are obviously not free to leave. Therefore, we are a paying prisoner, locked in a bedroom with our credit card being abused by a third party. Actually it’s more like your locked in a guest house but we pay your for the pleasure. Remember 1.8k in extra funding for every man, women and Child in Scotland.
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