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Post by timrollpickering on Mar 12, 2021 22:44:54 GMT
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,173
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Post by mboy on Mar 13, 2021 7:49:01 GMT
More on the Bristol Labour meltdown...
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 8:43:19 GMT
More on the Bristol Labour meltdown... It sums up exactly my view of Labour's political style and way of working, and it sounds as if Liverpool boss politics has migrated to Bristol. The section on tribalism particularly hit home, and it's only when you withdraw from party politics that you realise just how prevalent it is, and how easy it is to slip into that way of thinking and working.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 8:59:34 GMT
This saddens me more than a typical Green defection. There really ought to be a place for people who have concerns with aspects of the transgender rights agenda within the party. Hmmmm. It depends on how you view the issue. Would the same liberty be afforded with regard to racism? Too many, once the surface is scratched, hold views which are very reminiscent of the arguments used in the past relating to gay men, in particular. There is an underlying view that transition is essentially undesirable. Of course, this is a view, but what all parties have to decide is where the boundaries lie and what the starting point is. I think there are some greens who are environmentalist first and foremost, and when other issues arise might have views which would be socially conservative - I don't think it's feasible to have a party which only has coherent views on the environment and no clear view on everything else. This may be down to reporting but that's how the article came across -that he was a Green purely because of his position on environmental issues
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 13, 2021 9:15:52 GMT
This saddens me more than a typical Green defection. There really ought to be a place for people who have concerns with aspects of the transgender rights agenda within the party. Hmmmm. It depends on how you view the issue. Would the same liberty be afforded with regard to racism? Too many, once the surface is scratched, hold views which are very reminiscent of the arguments used in the past relating to gay men, in particular. There is an underlying view that transition is essentially undesirable. Of course, this is a view, but what all parties have to decide is where the boundaries lie and what the starting point is. I think there are some greens who are environmentalist first and foremost, and when other issues arise might have views which would be socially conservative - I don't think it's feasible to have a party which only has coherent views on the environment and no clear view on everything else. I'd definitely extend the same liberty to those who disagree with critical race theory, though I'm unsure whether you'd consider that the equivalent liberty on the issue of racism.
I've seen plenty of unreasonable intolerance from the transgender rights movement and its supporters within the party. When Caroline Lucas gets labelled a TERF simply for meeting a group of her constituents, or when asking what the word woman means in a leadership hustings gets a reply that implies that the questioner must be a bigot, rather than simply someone seeking to clarify the candidates' stance on what's become a controversial issue, that's a problem.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 9:31:15 GMT
Hmmmm. It depends on how you view the issue. Would the same liberty be afforded with regard to racism? Too many, once the surface is scratched, hold views which are very reminiscent of the arguments used in the past relating to gay men, in particular. There is an underlying view that transition is essentially undesirable. Of course, this is a view, but what all parties have to decide is where the boundaries lie and what the starting point is. I think there are some greens who are environmentalist first and foremost, and when other issues arise might have views which would be socially conservative - I don't think it's feasible to have a party which only has coherent views on the environment and no clear view on everything else. I'd definitely extend the same liberty to those who disagree with critical race theory, though I'm unsure whether you'd consider that the equivalent liberty on the issue of racism.
I've seen plenty of unreasonable intolerance from the transgender rights movement and its supporters within the party. When Caroline Lucas gets labelled a TERF simply for meeting a group of her constituents, or when asking what the word woman means in a leadership hustings gets a reply that implies that the questioner must be a bigot, rather than simply someone seeking to clarify the candidates' stance on what's become a controversial issue, that's a problem. Problem is that you can always make a case by citing the most extreme examples. Ultimately, though, the Greens, like any other party, will have to reach policy decisions on all sorts of issues, and not everyone is going to be happy whatever the decisions are. It's more the issue that the Greens may have a section of members who are environmentalists and those issues can unite the Greens, but it might be more difficult when it comes to other matters.
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 13, 2021 9:51:23 GMT
I'd definitely extend the same liberty to those who disagree with critical race theory, though I'm unsure whether you'd consider that the equivalent liberty on the issue of racism.
I've seen plenty of unreasonable intolerance from the transgender rights movement and its supporters within the party. When Caroline Lucas gets labelled a TERF simply for meeting a group of her constituents, or when asking what the word woman means in a leadership hustings gets a reply that implies that the questioner must be a bigot, rather than simply someone seeking to clarify the candidates' stance on what's become a controversial issue, that's a problem. Problem is that you can always make a case by citing the most extreme examples. Ultimately, though, the Greens, like any other party, will have to reach policy decisions on all sorts of issues, and not everyone is going to be happy whatever the decisions are. It's more the issue that the Greens may have a section of members who are environmentalists and those issues can unite the Greens, but it might be more difficult when it comes to other matters. The issue here isn't the party's current policy, though. It's the treatment of, and attitudes towards, some of the people who disagree with it. I can't think of any other issue where the party has had this kind of problem with party members who disagree with party policy.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 10:10:44 GMT
Problem is that you can always make a case by citing the most extreme examples. Ultimately, though, the Greens, like any other party, will have to reach policy decisions on all sorts of issues, and not everyone is going to be happy whatever the decisions are. It's more the issue that the Greens may have a section of members who are environmentalists and those issues can unite the Greens, but it might be more difficult when it comes to other matters. The issue here isn't the party's current policy, though. It's the treatment of, and attitudes towards, some of the people who disagree with it. I can't think of any other issue where the party has had this kind of problem with party members who disagree with party policy. Perhaps it's because it's a very fundamental issue affecting people's lives. I would agree that some of the transgender rights campaigners use Twitter inspired approaches which are unhelpful. However I would go back to my previous post and the actual views held by the anti trans people which in my view should be opposed and have many of the same type of arguments used to oppose gay rights in previous years. Ultimately it comes down to what is thought about transitioning itself. There was a Brighton councillor who refused to support Green policy on gay rights, I recall? At the time it caused some controversy.
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mboy
Liberal
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Posts: 22,173
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Post by mboy on Mar 13, 2021 11:21:35 GMT
This increasing tendancy to declare more and more areas of policy as "fundamental rights" and therefore not up for discussion is frankly bunk and is a transparent attempt to simply squash debate on issues where the argument is very weak and difficult to defend in debate.
The idea that forcing everyone to accept that people can change gender by declaration, and that the numerous obvious problematic safeguarding consequences of that (males in female: prisons, sports, refuges, changing rooms, etc) *cannot be discussed* because this is somehow a "fundamental right" should not be entertained by an adult democracy.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 11:27:51 GMT
And that's your view but not one that I'd expect a party like the Greens to entertain. A conservative party, certainly.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,488
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Post by Khunanup on Mar 13, 2021 15:11:05 GMT
This increasing tendancy to declare more and more areas of policy as "fundamental rights" and therefore not up for discussion is frankly bunk and is a transparent attempt to simply squash debate on issues where the argument is very weak and difficult to defend in debate. The idea that forcing everyone to accept that people can change gender by declaration, and that the numerous obvious problematic safeguarding consequences of that (males in female: prisons, sports, refuges, changing rooms, etc) *cannot be discussed* because this is somehow a "fundamental right" should not be entertained by an adult democracy. I find it interesting when some liberals take a communitarian view on this. Surely it's up to the individual as to how they declare themselves (on any topic, in any way frankly) and the only issue for the state is whether they recognise that right or not. At that point it is pretty binary because if the state does recognise that right it's clear cut and if it doesn't that is too. Of course it doesn't 'force' anyone to concur but at that point the state has taken a settled view and it has to do so with the for thought to consider the consequences. The more I read the rhetoric against self declaration it more and more reads like justifications against homosexuals bring allowed in the military, desegregation and employing people with serious mental health issues. The safeguarding risks are miniscule but they become inflated massively just to create a justification to not allow people to be recognised and not discriminated against in simply being who they are. That's my view and I know people have others, but that's the State's choice to make and whichever way that goes all it does is give the State's point of view, not 'forcing' anyone to agree it's the right one or not.
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 13, 2021 16:39:42 GMT
The issue here isn't the party's current policy, though. It's the treatment of, and attitudes towards, some of the people who disagree with it. I can't think of any other issue where the party has had this kind of problem with party members who disagree with party policy. Perhaps it's because it's a very fundamental issue affecting people's lives. I would agree that some of the transgender rights campaigners use Twitter inspired approaches which are unhelpful. However I would go back to my previous post and the actual views held by the anti trans people which in my view should be opposed and have many of the same type of arguments used to oppose gay rights in previous years. Ultimately it comes down to what is thought about transitioning itself. You don't get the same level of pushback against, say, pro-life Greens, even though abortion seems to be viewed as a fundamental issue affecting peoples' lives. Greens I know who are sceptical on some of these issues aren't opposed to transgender people being able to transition. They reject the idea that transwomen are women in every way and that transmen are men in every way, think of the condition as most likely having psychological causes rather than physical ones, and think that legally transitioning should be dependent on receiving medical treatment for the condition. None of that seems like an unreasonable point of view to me.
You're thinking of Christina Summers, who voted against a council motion about same-sex marriage. The issue there was actually about different interpretations of what she'd said to the LGBT wing of Brighton Green Party during candidate selection. Followed up by both sides of the dispute escalating things in an incredibly unhelpful way. I don't know of any other party members with religiously conservative views on homosexuality who have reported being harassed by other party members because of those views. Whilst I have come across at least half a dozen party members who have had problems because of their view on transgenderism.
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Post by owainsutton on Mar 13, 2021 17:04:09 GMT
This saddens me more than a typical Green defection. There really ought to be a place for people who have concerns with aspects of the transgender rights agenda within the party. My views on this are (a) the inherent risks involved in recruiting a target candidate who is a good local campaigner but maybe doesn't really align with the main thrust of the party's principles, and (b) how individuals can be very easily recruited by extremists. Some of the full text of his resignation statement was cut-and-paste transphobic dog-whistles and a couple of moments seemed to veer into fiction.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Mar 13, 2021 17:05:28 GMT
And that's your view but not one that I'd expect a party like the Greens to entertain. A conservative party, certainly. I have a general comment on that attitude, now prevalent on the left, if I may. I find the fact that the left has willingly surrendered freedom, civil liberties, LGB rights, pragmatic T rights, moderate feminism and patriotism to those of us on the right astounding. Don't get me wrong, it's an absolutely phenomenal gift, but it's astounding nonetheless.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 13, 2021 17:52:28 GMT
And that's your view but not one that I'd expect a party like the Greens to entertain. A conservative party, certainly. I have a general comment on that attitude, now prevalent on the left, if I may. I find the fact that the left has willingly surrendered freedom, civil liberties, LGB rights, pragmatic T rights, moderate feminism and patriotism to those of us on the right astounding. Don't get me wrong, it's an absolutely phenomenal gift, but it's astounding nonetheless. That's quite one of the silliest posts I have ever read on here.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,444
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Post by European Lefty on Mar 13, 2021 18:09:23 GMT
And that's your view but not one that I'd expect a party like the Greens to entertain. A conservative party, certainly. I have a general comment on that attitude, now prevalent on the left, if I may. I find the fact that the left has willingly surrendered freedom, civil liberties, LGB rights, pragmatic T rights, moderate feminism and patriotism to those of us on the right astounding. Don't get me wrong, it's an absolutely phenomenal gift, but it's astounding nonetheless. Merseymike is right that this whole post is ridiculous, but especially the bolded part. Every time transgender rights comes up with discussion the opposition almost always comes from those on the right
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Mar 13, 2021 18:17:52 GMT
Wasn't there another suspension in Cornwall a few years ago involving emails? Or was it something to do with the member being banned from schools? I may have misremembered but it was definitely Cornwall.
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,186
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Post by Tony Otim on Mar 13, 2021 18:33:18 GMT
Wasn't there another suspension in Cornwall a few years ago involving emails? Or was it something to do with the member being banned from schools? I may have misremembered but it was definitely Cornwall. Yes - iirc, was a LD cllr who was being investigated by police for online activities that raised safeguarding issues and the chief exec wrote to all schools telling them not to let him onto the grounds. I believe he claimed identity theft as a defence, but can't remember what the eventual outcome was. I do know that particular chief exec is no longer in Cornwall because he's here in Edinburgh now.
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 13, 2021 18:35:30 GMT
Wasn't there another suspension in Cornwall a few years ago involving emails? Or was it something to do with the member being banned from schools? I may have misremembered but it was definitely Cornwall. Yes - iirc, was a LD cllr who was being investigated by police for online activities that raised safeguarding issues and the chief exec wrote to all schools telling them not to let him onto the grounds. I believe he claimed identity theft as a defence, but can't remember what the eventual outcome was. I do know that particular chief exec is no longer in Cornwall because he's here in Edinburgh now. From 2014.
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Mar 13, 2021 18:43:50 GMT
If that report is a fair summary then this seems like a major over-reaction by the LDs.
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