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Post by tonyhill on Feb 25, 2023 20:30:57 GMT
I'm not keen on defectors of any sort. Clearly people can change their political views and recognise that a different party represents them better than their existing one, but if they subsequently return to their original party then they haven't thought through their ideas very rigorously. Re-ratting seems entirely appropriate in those instances.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,226
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Post by CatholicLeft on Feb 25, 2023 20:38:42 GMT
Ratted isn't very nice. She joined the Liberal Democrats mostly out of desperation at the state her former party had got into rather than a wholehearted support for every single Liberal Democrat policy. She has returned to what she regards as her natural political home. I for one welcome her even though inevitably we will not agree on absolutely everything. The abuse she received was truly shocking, with only Margaret Hodge having to endure quite that level of it - even Ruth Smeeth & Louise Ellman got off relatively lightly compared with her. If she gets selected in a fair contest for a winnable seat, great, but to me the most important thing is that she is once again a member of my party, as I thought was pretty likely happen once the 3rd anniversary of her candidacy in Finchley & Golders Green had passed. I have no comment on this. To be honest, I think the Lib Dems were kind and generous to her, realising she was never really a convinced member, and she gave back in that she added over 14,000 votes in Finchley and Golders Green. I have never attacked her for standing for the Liberal Democrats, maybe your comment could be - I am happy to have given you a place when you needed one. I am glad you feel safe to go home. Who knows, the Lib Dems might need a well-positioned friend if there is a hung parliament.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,226
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Post by CatholicLeft on Feb 25, 2023 20:46:31 GMT
I'm not keen on defectors of any sort. Clearly people can change their political views and recognise that a different party represents them better than their existing one, but if they subsequently return to their original party then they haven't thought through their ideas very rigorously. Re-ratting seems entirely appropriate in those instances. She didn't leave Labour to join the Lib Dems, she was bullied out of the party and joined what she thought was a new party. She didn't change her political views. That party, unsurprisingly, failed. The Lib Dems saw an opportunity to embrace a political talent and, probably, pushed the social democratic angle. Most of the original SDP MP defectors rejoined the Labout Party, and they didn't leave for the same reasons as Luciana Berger. So, I don't see her as a rat of any kind.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,504
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 25, 2023 21:02:54 GMT
I'm not keen on defectors of any sort. Clearly people can change their political views and recognise that a different party represents them better than their existing one, but if they subsequently return to their original party then they haven't thought through their ideas very rigorously. Re-ratting seems entirely appropriate in those instances. She didn't leave Labour to join the Lib Dems, she was bullied out of the party and joined what she thought was a new party. She didn't change her political views. That party, unsurprisingly, failed. The Lib Dems saw an opportunity to embrace a political talent and, probably, pushed the social democratic angle. Most of the original SDP MP defectors rejoined the Labout Party, and they didn't leave for the same reasons as Luciana Berger. So, I don't see her as a rat of any kind. I have a very dim view of the Labour Party as an organisation, and I understand completely those who want to escape it. Berger going back doesn't surprise me at all, she didn't really want to go, as you've said, but the complete lack of any understanding of the acceptance that she put our party under (re the very bitter battles that took place when she was Labour candidate in Liverpool) is palpable. Ultimately I don't care, it's another politician caught in the political straightjacket of two establishment parties who duck and weave to fit political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants while, in the last 35 years, not wanting to take a chance and actually change things for the better.
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Post by batman on Feb 25, 2023 21:19:28 GMT
that's not only not a very nice comment, given what she has had to endure, but as well as coming over as bitter it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Sometimes saying nothing is the best option. If you'd had to put up with even 1% of what she has had to put up with, perhaps you'd show a smidgen more understanding. I wouldn't have joined the Liberal Democrats or Change UK personally, but I have every sympathy for what drove her to seek a different political home and have never condemned her for standing against Labour, even though I personally could not have brought myself to do that.
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Post by tonyhill on Feb 25, 2023 21:20:58 GMT
Just to be clear,I didn't like or approve of the way we campaigned against her when she was first adopted in Liverpool, and I was surprised that she joined us. She clearly has a very forgiving nature, both to embrace us, and to re-embrace the Labour Party after what it did to her.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Feb 25, 2023 21:29:28 GMT
She didn't leave Labour to join the Lib Dems, she was bullied out of the party and joined what she thought was a new party. She didn't change her political views. That party, unsurprisingly, failed. The Lib Dems saw an opportunity to embrace a political talent and, probably, pushed the social democratic angle. Most of the original SDP MP defectors rejoined the Labout Party, and they didn't leave for the same reasons as Luciana Berger. So, I don't see her as a rat of any kind. I have a very dim view of the Labour Party as an organisation, and I understand completely those who want to escape it. Berger going back doesn't surprise me at all, she didn't really want to go, as you've said, but the complete lack of any understanding of the acceptance that she put our party under (re the very bitter battles that took place when she was Labour candidate in Liverpool) is palpable. Ultimately I don't care, it's another politician caught in the political straightjacket of two establishment parties who duck and weave to fit political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants while, in the last 35 years, not wanting to take a chance and actually change things for the better. Liberal Democrats are part of the political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants, Nick Clegg and his fellow ministers proved that. Don't pretend your party isn't part of the same ilk as Labour and the Conservatives. It's true the electorate want something different, but the Liberal Democrats aren't it.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 25, 2023 21:48:51 GMT
I have no comment on this. To be honest, I think the Lib Dems were kind and generous to her, realising she was never really a convinced member, and she gave back in that she added over 14,000 votes in Finchley and Golders Green. I have never attacked her for standing for the Liberal Democrats, maybe your comment could be - I am happy to have given you a place when you needed one. I am glad you feel safe to go home. Who knows, the Lib Dems might need a well-positioned friend if there is a hung parliament. I'm very relaxed about defectors. Actually the ones who defect to us generally worry me more than those who defect away! (Assuming the defections are for genuine reasons. Some are just awesomely cynical.) Two of my former colleagues on the Council have since moved to another party; it has made no difference to our relationship. People have to make their own decisions about what they're comfortable with. I'm even relaxed about hanging prepositions.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,504
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 25, 2023 22:06:25 GMT
I have a very dim view of the Labour Party as an organisation, and I understand completely those who want to escape it. Berger going back doesn't surprise me at all, she didn't really want to go, as you've said, but the complete lack of any understanding of the acceptance that she put our party under (re the very bitter battles that took place when she was Labour candidate in Liverpool) is palpable. Ultimately I don't care, it's another politician caught in the political straightjacket of two establishment parties who duck and weave to fit political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants while, in the last 35 years, not wanting to take a chance and actually change things for the better. Liberal Democrats are part of the political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants, Nick Clegg and his fellow ministers proved that. Don't pretend your party isn't part of the same ilk as Labour and the Conservatives. It's true the electorate want something different, but the Liberal Democrats aren't it. Bullshit. And that's the problem with our political culture. The one established party that does not have any vested interest backing is the one party who has not been in power for over a century bar a brief period in coalition (and despite that, our non compromised by outside influence ordinary members agreed to the coalition, right or wrong). We might have been a party caught up in that disreputable stitch-up from 2010-15, but don't fall into the lie that we became party of that, FFS, if we did, we wouldn't have been slaughtered in 2015.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,486
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Post by European Lefty on Feb 25, 2023 22:12:07 GMT
Liberal Democrats are part of the political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants, Nick Clegg and his fellow ministers proved that. Don't pretend your party isn't part of the same ilk as Labour and the Conservatives. It's true the electorate want something different, but the Liberal Democrats aren't it. Bullshit. And that's the problem with our political culture. The one established party that does not have any vested interest backing is the one party who has not been in power for over a century bar a brief period in coalition (and despite that, our non compromised by outside influence ordinary members agreed to the coalition, right or wrong). We might have been a party caught up in that disreputable stitch-up from 2010-15, but don't fall into the lie that we became party of that, FFS, if we did, we wouldn't have been slaughtered in 2015. You cannot seriously believe that? Every parliamentary party and quite a few besides have backing from "vested interests", and the LibDems do have backing from numerous businessmen (and of course had even more while brexit was a live issue). Not, of course, that that it necessarily a bad thing
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,226
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Post by CatholicLeft on Feb 25, 2023 22:12:45 GMT
Liberal Democrats are part of the political orthodoxy, whatever the electorate wants, Nick Clegg and his fellow ministers proved that. Don't pretend your party isn't part of the same ilk as Labour and the Conservatives. It's true the electorate want something different, but the Liberal Democrats aren't it. Bullshit. And that's the problem with our political culture. The one established party that does not have any vested interest backing is the one party who has not been in power for over a century bar a brief period in coalition (and despite that, our non compromised by outside influence ordinary members agreed to the coalition, right or wrong). We might have been a party caught up in that disreputable stitch-up from 2010-15, but don't fall into the lie that we became party of that, FFS, if we did, we wouldn't have been slaughtered in 2015. If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he defected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously.
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 25, 2023 22:29:37 GMT
Bullshit. And that's the problem with our political culture. The one established party that does not have any vested interest backing is the one party who has not been in power for over a century bar a brief period in coalition (and despite that, our non compromised by outside influence ordinary members agreed to the coalition, right or wrong). We might have been a party caught up in that disreputable stitch-up from 2010-15, but don't fall into the lie that we became party of that, FFS, if we did, we wouldn't have been slaughtered in 2015. If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he dwfected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously. If Labour hadn't made him a peer and then a Minister with resposibility for GM Foods despite a massive comflict of interest with the family business then your comments might have carried some weight.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,486
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Post by European Lefty on Feb 25, 2023 22:44:04 GMT
If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he dwfected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously. If Labour hadn't made him a peer and then a Minister with resposibility for GM Foods despite a massive comflict of interest with the family business then your comments might have carried some weight. That has absolutely nowt to do with the comment you're replying to or the wider discussion?
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 25, 2023 23:30:01 GMT
If Labour hadn't made him a peer and then a Minister with resposibility for GM Foods despite a massive comflict of interest with the family business then your comments might have carried some weight. That has absolutely nowt to do with the comment you're replying to or the wider discussion? It absolutely does.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,486
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Post by European Lefty on Feb 25, 2023 23:37:43 GMT
That has absolutely nowt to do with the comment you're replying to or the wider discussion? It absolutely does. Hang on: you were in a conversation about high-profile support for parties, and replying to a comment about someone denying that their party receives such benefits. What does one individual's previous cabinet post have to do with it?
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 25, 2023 23:54:45 GMT
Hang on: you were in a conversation about high-profile support for parties, and replying to a comment about someone denying that their party receives such benefits. What does one individual's previous cabinet post have to do with it? It wasn't a Cabinet post, but it was a ministerial job with a huge conflict of interests having first been given a peerage from the party he made huge donations to.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 25, 2023 23:58:26 GMT
This is the problem the Lib Dems have-their best chances now are fishing in Tory waters.
If they campaign next time out in Bath or Winchester or Cheadle on a platform of reducing house prices and punishing owners of second homes, then yes, they're fighting the orthodoxy. If they go down the Chesham route of Band E Against Railways, they aren't really fighting The Man.
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Post by Wisconsin on Feb 26, 2023 0:33:08 GMT
I wonder if any of the other eight Labour/ChangeUK MPs will be rejoining shortly.
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bsjmcr
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,374
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Post by bsjmcr on Feb 26, 2023 0:57:58 GMT
I wonder if any of the other eight Labour/ChangeUK MPs will be rejoining shortly. Would be funny if in the unlikely event Chris Leslie, CEO of the ‘Credit Services Association’ decided to rejoin, just to see the Twitter reaction. Absolute meltdown I predict.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 26, 2023 1:09:31 GMT
Labour should impose Berger as their candidate in Islington North for the bants
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