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Post by rivers10 on Oct 7, 2021 20:55:46 GMT
Clearly yes Say what you want about the AS crisis in Labour, I'm the first to say that Corbyn handled it appallingly and have said as such on this forum many times But anybody that genuinely believes Corbyn himself is an anti semite is acting in tremendously bad faith No, I'm not. This is a man who said "Zionists" don't understand British history or humour despite living here their whole lives, essentially calling Jews 'rootless cosmopolitans'. He also wrote a forward for J. A. Hobson's "Imperialism: A Study" praising Hobson's analysis about the ownership of the press and finance. What was Hobson's argument about that? He believed that "men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience" ... "and are in a unique position to control the policy of nations" were behind imperialism to reach new markets, and that these same "men of a peculiar race" also owned the press, which they used to attain public support for their imperial project. Do I think backing up those evidently anti-semitic crackpot theories is racist? Yes, yes I do. Perhaps he's just really dim, but then that wouldn't say much for the party that handed him the keys to the place, would it? He has also attended Cable Street memorial demos every year for decades, helped campaign to protect dozens of synagogues across Islington and Haringey during his time as an MP and a councillor before that, voted for every single piece of anti racist legislation that came to the commons in his time as an MP including several specifically pertaining to anti semitism, in his role as an MP attended holocaust memorials and other Jewish events regularly and could count numerous Jews amongst his friendship group including the late David Greaber, momentum founder Jon Lansman, his former staffer James Schneider and the journalist Michael Segalov not to mention he vocally supported and has a good working relationship with Bernie Sanders Low and behold Hodge herself said in 2015 that Corbyn was a nice man and a good constituency MP but not suitable to be party leader, it was only in 2016 that she suddenly had the epiphany that he was a raging anti semite all this time...
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 7, 2021 21:00:16 GMT
No, I'm not. This is a man who said "Zionists" don't understand British history or humour despite living here their whole lives, essentially calling Jews 'rootless cosmopolitans'. He also wrote a forward for J. A. Hobson's "Imperialism: A Study" praising Hobson's analysis about the ownership of the press and finance. What was Hobson's argument about that? He believed that "men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience" ... "and are in a unique position to control the policy of nations" were behind imperialism to reach new markets, and that these same "men of a peculiar race" also owned the press, which they used to attain public support for their imperial project. Do I think backing up those evidently anti-semitic crackpot theories is racist? Yes, yes I do. Perhaps he's just really dim, but then that wouldn't say much for the party that handed him the keys to the place, would it? He has also attended Cable Street memorial demos every year for decades, helped campaign to protect dozens of synagogues across Islington and Haringey during his time as an MP and a councillor before that, voted for every single piece of anti racist legislation that came to the commons in his time as an MP including several specifically pertaining to anti semitism, in his role as an MP attended holocaust memorials and other Jewish events regularly and could count numerous Jews amongst his friendship group including the late David Greaber, momentum founder Jon Lansman, his former staffer James Schneider and the journalist Michael Segalov not to mention he vocally supported and has a good working relationship with Bernie Sanders Low and behold Hodge herself said in 2015 that Corbyn was a nice man and a good constituency MP but not suitable to be party leader, it was only in 2016 that she suddenly had the epiphany that he was a raging anti semite all this time... I'm sorry, but knowing some Jews, signing papers and going to left wing events means very little indeed if you endorse the idea that Jews secretly and nefariously run the world for profit. It's little better than "but some of my best friends are black".
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Post by rivers10 on Oct 7, 2021 21:06:53 GMT
Clearly yes Say what you want about the AS crisis in Labour, I'm the first to say that Corbyn handled it appallingly and have said as such on this forum many times But anybody that genuinely believes Corbyn himself is an anti semite is acting in tremendously bad faith I don’t really disagree I doubt Corbyn has a personal issue with Jews. But I’d say similar for those who genuinely think Boris Johnson is a racist/homophobe based on the odd un-PC comment from years ago when all evidence from his years in elected politics suggests otherwise. Basically it’s part of the world these days where someone’s political opponent has to be made out to be the worst person possible with no nuance. I get where your coming from but the key difference is that while BoJo is clearly not a "traditional" racist and I agree he probably has no personal issue day to day with Muslims, black people or the LGBTQ community for that matter he definitely does subscribe to a very old fashioned upper class British mentality that sees those that are different as peculiar if not downright inferior to him in the "natural order" This is evidenced in multiple ways most notably his comments on colonialism in particular "the issue isn't that we were once in charge, the issue is we're not in charge anymore" which is about as "white man's burden" as it comes in the 21st century The worst one can really accuse Corbyn of with actual substantial evidence to back it up is being an anti zionist and we're in ery dangerous territory when anti zionism is considered anti semitism and I say that as sombody who isn't an anti zionist
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Post by rcronald on Oct 7, 2021 21:09:22 GMT
What's he said that's going to get the whip withdrawn (I refuse to click on a Guido link) Said some members had been unfairly suspended/expelled due to false or unfair allegations Said Starmer wasn't a very good LOTO Nodded and smiled when a crowd at a TWT rally started chanting Keith Hardly compares to Neil Coyle sending Corbyn drunken late night texts calling him scum Margaret Hodge called Corbyn a "f**King racist" to his face Jess Philips laughing at Dianne Abbott being racially abused Or the litany of Labour MP's that literally told people to vote for other parties at the last election Nick Coyle needs to take a long walk and smell the coffee, it’s not the first time he can’t/won’t control his temper/mouth.
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Post by rcronald on Oct 7, 2021 21:12:27 GMT
Clearly yes Say what you want about the AS crisis in Labour, I'm the first to say that Corbyn handled it appallingly and have said as such on this forum many times But anybody that genuinely believes Corbyn himself is an anti semite is acting in tremendously bad faith No, I'm not. This is a man who said "Zionists" don't understand British history or humour despite living here their whole lives, essentially calling Jews 'rootless cosmopolitans'. He also wrote a forward for J. A. Hobson's "Imperialism: A Study" praising Hobson's analysis about the ownership of the press and finance. What was Hobson's argument about that? He believed that "men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience" ... "and are in a unique position to control the policy of nations" were behind imperialism to reach new markets, and that these same "men of a peculiar race" also owned the press, which they used to attain public support for their imperial project. Do I think backing up those evidently anti-semitic crackpot theories is racist? Yes, yes I do. Perhaps he's just really dim, but then that wouldn't say much for the party that handed him the keys to the place, would it? TBF to Corbyn, Israeli Jews regularly to rant that American Jews are rootless cosmopolitan anarchists…. (But that is due to the horrible reputation American Jews have there)
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Post by rivers10 on Oct 7, 2021 21:13:19 GMT
He has also attended Cable Street memorial demos every year for decades, helped campaign to protect dozens of synagogues across Islington and Haringey during his time as an MP and a councillor before that, voted for every single piece of anti racist legislation that came to the commons in his time as an MP including several specifically pertaining to anti semitism, in his role as an MP attended holocaust memorials and other Jewish events regularly and could count numerous Jews amongst his friendship group including the late David Greaber, momentum founder Jon Lansman, his former staffer James Schneider and the journalist Michael Segalov not to mention he vocally supported and has a good working relationship with Bernie Sanders Low and behold Hodge herself said in 2015 that Corbyn was a nice man and a good constituency MP but not suitable to be party leader, it was only in 2016 that she suddenly had the epiphany that he was a raging anti semite all this time... I'm sorry, but knowing some Jews, signing papers and going to left wing events means very little indeed if you endorse the idea that Jews secretly and nefariously run the world for profit. It's little better than "but some of my best friends are black". The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson?
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 7, 2021 21:18:22 GMT
The EHRC investigation wasn’t commissioned by the current leadership, and, if the Commission decides to investigate having received a complaint(s), the subject of the investigation has no choice and can’t dictate terms such as insisting on a corresponding investigation into Islamaphobia in the Conservative Party. The fact it decided to investigate Labour but rejected multiple complains about the Conservative Party despite evidence shows the EHRC is biaised and it should have been the only answer from Labour to the "report". Rubbish, Labour were obliged by law to respond fully to the EHRC recommendations. Perhaps if Mr Corbyn had instituted his own credible investigation, rather than deny the existence of antisemitism within the Party despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and attempt to whitewash it with the sham Chakrabarti Report, he, like the Conservatives, could have staved off an EHRC inquiry, but to set up a body (the Commission was one of the last hurrahs of the Brown Administration) and then question its neutrality and credibility would have been, even for Corbyn, moronically stupid politically.
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Post by rcronald on Oct 7, 2021 21:20:59 GMT
I'm sorry, but knowing some Jews, signing papers and going to left wing events means very little indeed if you endorse the idea that Jews secretly and nefariously run the world for profit. It's little better than "but some of my best friends are black". The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson? The problem with Corbyn is not his own anti-semitism (I don’t consider to be an overtly anti Semitic person - unlike many politicians in the likes of Ireland or Sweden) but his high toleration of it and that he is surrounded by people that are anti-Semitic.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Oct 7, 2021 21:31:10 GMT
The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson? The problem with Corbyn is not his own anti-semitism (I don’t consider to be an overtly anti Semitic person - unlike many politicians in the likes of Ireland or Sweden) but his high toleration of it and that he is surrounded by people that are anti-Semitic. I'll go with that; he may not be personally antisemitic, but he has found it terribly easy to make friends with people who have strong antisemitic views. He's been called the unluckiest antiracist in the world because of the number of times he's been on a platform alongside speakers with a record of very dodgy speeches and writings that he appears to have been unaware of before the media have pointed them out to him. Similarly, he has expressed his opposition to violence many many times, but it seems likely that plenty of his Irish republican and Palestinian friends would know how to strip down and reassemble an AK-47, and how to use it too.
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Post by stb12 on Oct 7, 2021 21:33:25 GMT
I don’t really disagree I doubt Corbyn has a personal issue with Jews. But I’d say similar for those who genuinely think Boris Johnson is a racist/homophobe based on the odd un-PC comment from years ago when all evidence from his years in elected politics suggests otherwise. Basically it’s part of the world these days where someone’s political opponent has to be made out to be the worst person possible with no nuance. I get where your coming from but the key difference is that while BoJo is clearly not a "traditional" racist and I agree he probably has no personal issue day to day with Muslims, black people or the LGBTQ community for that matter he definitely does subscribe to a very old fashioned upper class British mentality that sees those that are different as peculiar if not downright inferior to him in the "natural order" This is evidenced in multiple ways most notably his comments on colonialism in particular "the issue isn't that we were once in charge, the issue is we're not in charge anymore" which is about as "white man's burden" as it comes in the 21st century The worst one can really accuse Corbyn of with actual substantial evidence to back it up is being an anti zionist and we're in ery dangerous territory when anti zionism is considered anti semitism and I say that as sombody who isn't an anti zionist It’s a bit of a psychological/background study you’re doing there and I appreciate you trying to make it sound balanced but naturally with your lean in politics you’re looking for a bad conclusion because that's how the world seems to work these days To be clear I don’t like Boris myself at all and I think there’s plenty for opponents to attack him on such as the way he seems to wing things, his desire for power above any sort of principle, u-turns based on fear of the public, lies and so on. But pushing the image of him as this evil racist who also hates gays is just off putting and over playing your hand. I’m speaking for myself here but I believe it’s similar for a lot of non-aligned/middle ground voters hence i found Angela Rayner’s comments very stupid however sincerely she believed it. For Corbyn I think he was a very flawed politician with a lot of baggage that realistically should have stayed as a back bencher where he was likely happiest, but I don’t think he was an evil man setting out to destroy the country either. I actually think Theresa May’s campaign suffered In 2017 because it ended up all being about her not being Corbyn, 2019 while Corbyn was an issue Boris made Brexit the focus rather than the personalities
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Post by rivers10 on Oct 7, 2021 21:45:01 GMT
The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson? The problem with Corbyn is not his own anti-semitism (I don’t consider to be an overtly anti Semitic person - unlike many politicians in the likes of Ireland or Sweden) but his high toleration of it and that he is surrounded by people that are anti-Semitic. But the problem is the criteria being used to define AS can be attributed to more or less everybody on the left globally Pro Palestinian (a left wing favorite) which naturally leads to conflict with Israel ergo anti semitism And anti capitalism which due to an accident of history that's so complex it's been the topic of many books has lead to anti Semitic tropes in the past due to the unfair historical portrayal of Jews as leading capitalists Combine the two and one can claim (and indeed people are) that anybody on the left is an anti semite, Corbyn, the whole SCG, Bernie Sanders (even though he's Jewish) the Squad (AOC etc) Jean Luc Melenchon, pretty much all of Die Linke and I could go on. Its happening globally and when you've got left wing politicians from the US to the Netherlands to Australia all being accused of anti semitism for the same flimsy reasons you know something stinks (Edit Re that last point before anyone accuses me of peddling conspiracy theories that this is some global Jewish campaign to smear left wingers or some such no I obviously don't believe that. I just believe that the world watched how Corbyn was to great effect smeared as an anti semite and politicians on the right globally realised that they could easily deploy the same charge against their opponent's and are doing so with gusto. So no conspiracy just further proof of how shallow and partisan the whole affair was/is)
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 7, 2021 22:09:28 GMT
I'm sorry, but knowing some Jews, signing papers and going to left wing events means very little indeed if you endorse the idea that Jews secretly and nefariously run the world for profit. It's little better than "but some of my best friends are black". The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson? Not in its entirety.
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Post by rivers10 on Oct 7, 2021 23:22:30 GMT
The difference is unlike the "some of my best friends are black" people those individuals have all came out in defence of Corbyn and categorically said that in their personal opinion as Jews Corbyn is in no way an anti semite Genuine question, have you actually read Imperialism by Hobson? Not in its entirety. Fair enough, I personally have read it though and you appear to making the same mistake a lot of people did when this incident first sprung up in assuming the book was chock full of anti semitism with whole chapters devoted to Jew hate... That isn't the case though, from what I recall the offending sentence and one or two others make up the the entirety of this books anti Semitic content which according to certain elements of the British media might as well have been Mein Kampf Hobson was no doubt an anti semite (as many people sadly where back then) and for the record I personally don't even rate the book but I thought one of the main goals of the anti woke wars was that people could appreciate works for their primary purpose without them being totally tainted by a few bad bits, in this case a 400 page book about Imperialism and its relation to Capitalism (something which let's be frank is right up Corbyn's alley) is totally blacklisted because of the less than 0.1% that's anti Semitic and Corbyn's endorsement of the book has to be taken as a word for word endorsement of every constituent part even though the offending bits could be easily missed or as is more likely simply dismissed given it makes up such a tiny part of the book and isn't even relevant to its main analysis. In fact what I personally found telling was that as I recall there is actually more anti Asian and anti Black sentiment expressed in the book than anti Jewish sentiment but nobody raised that and accused Corbyn of harbouring anti Asian or anti Black views. Can't we therefore just see this for what it plainly is? A pretty feeble trawl through his past actions to find anything that could be construed as anti Semitic? I mean for crying out loud if we're really going down the route of "any endorsement is a wholesale endorsement of all expressed views" then I doubt there would be a single politician or member of the public for that matter who would be left unscathed, I mean I doubt a single one of us here haven't enjoyed a Roald Dahl book when we were younger, are we all therefore anti semites as well?
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Post by rcronald on Oct 8, 2021 5:25:26 GMT
The problem with Corbyn is not his own anti-semitism (I don’t consider to be an overtly anti Semitic person - unlike many politicians in the likes of Ireland or Sweden) but his high toleration of it and that he is surrounded by people that are anti-Semitic. But the problem is the criteria being used to define AS can be attributed to more or less everybody on the left globally Pro Palestinian (a left wing favorite) which naturally leads to conflict with Israel ergo anti semitism And anti capitalism which due to an accident of history that's so complex it's been the topic of many books has lead to anti Semitic tropes in the past due to the unfair historical portrayal of Jews as leading capitalists Combine the two and one can claim (and indeed people are) that anybody on the left is an anti semite, Corbyn, the whole SCG, Bernie Sanders (even though he's Jewish) the Squad (AOC etc) Jean Luc Melenchon, pretty much all of Die Linke and I could go on. Its happening globally and when you've got left wing politicians from the US to the Netherlands to Australia all being accused of anti semitism for the same flimsy reasons you know something stinks (Edit Re that last point before anyone accuses me of peddling conspiracy theories that this is some global Jewish campaign to smear left wingers or some such no I obviously don't believe that. I just believe that the world watched how Corbyn was to great effect smeared as an anti semite and politicians on the right globally realised that they could easily deploy the same charge against their opponent's and are doing so with gusto. So no conspiracy just further proof of how shallow and partisan the whole affair was/is) Do you seriously think that Ilhan Omar (and I talk specifically about her and not any other person you mentioned) is not anti-semitic?
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 8, 2021 9:16:40 GMT
Combine the two and one can claim (and indeed people are) that anybody on the left is an anti semite, Corbyn, the whole SCG, Bernie Sanders (even though he's Jewish) the Squad (AOC etc) Jean Luc Melenchon, pretty much all of Die Linke and I could go on. Its happening globally and when you've got left wing politicians from the US to the Netherlands to Australia all being accused of anti semitism for the same flimsy reasons you know something stinks Some of those accusations are certainly spurious, but Melenchon has got a history of anti-semitic comments as long as his arm.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 8, 2021 9:19:02 GMT
But the problem is the criteria being used to define AS can be attributed to more or less everybody on the left globally Pro Palestinian (a left wing favorite) which naturally leads to conflict with Israel ergo anti semitism And anti capitalism which due to an accident of history that's so complex it's been the topic of many books has lead to anti Semitic tropes in the past due to the unfair historical portrayal of Jews as leading capitalists Combine the two and one can claim (and indeed people are) that anybody on the left is an anti semite, Corbyn, the whole SCG, Bernie Sanders (even though he's Jewish) the Squad (AOC etc) Jean Luc Melenchon, pretty much all of Die Linke and I could go on. Its happening globally and when you've got left wing politicians from the US to the Netherlands to Australia all being accused of anti semitism for the same flimsy reasons you know something stinks (Edit Re that last point before anyone accuses me of peddling conspiracy theories that this is some global Jewish campaign to smear left wingers or some such no I obviously don't believe that. I just believe that the world watched how Corbyn was to great effect smeared as an anti semite and politicians on the right globally realised that they could easily deploy the same charge against their opponent's and are doing so with gusto. So no conspiracy just further proof of how shallow and partisan the whole affair was/is) Do you seriously think that Ilhan Omar (and I talk specifically about her and not any other person you mentioned) is not anti-semitic? Well if it means anything, the Synagogue in her District hosted a fundraiser for her last year, and the Rabbi was an honorary Co-Chair of her re-election committee, so it doesn’t appear that they have a problem with her.
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Post by rivers10 on Oct 8, 2021 9:47:17 GMT
But the problem is the criteria being used to define AS can be attributed to more or less everybody on the left globally Pro Palestinian (a left wing favorite) which naturally leads to conflict with Israel ergo anti semitism And anti capitalism which due to an accident of history that's so complex it's been the topic of many books has lead to anti Semitic tropes in the past due to the unfair historical portrayal of Jews as leading capitalists Combine the two and one can claim (and indeed people are) that anybody on the left is an anti semite, Corbyn, the whole SCG, Bernie Sanders (even though he's Jewish) the Squad (AOC etc) Jean Luc Melenchon, pretty much all of Die Linke and I could go on. Its happening globally and when you've got left wing politicians from the US to the Netherlands to Australia all being accused of anti semitism for the same flimsy reasons you know something stinks (Edit Re that last point before anyone accuses me of peddling conspiracy theories that this is some global Jewish campaign to smear left wingers or some such no I obviously don't believe that. I just believe that the world watched how Corbyn was to great effect smeared as an anti semite and politicians on the right globally realised that they could easily deploy the same charge against their opponent's and are doing so with gusto. So no conspiracy just further proof of how shallow and partisan the whole affair was/is) Do you seriously think that Ilhan Omar (and I talk specifically about her and not any other person you mentioned) is not anti-semitic? In a nutshell no I don't
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Post by rcronald on Oct 8, 2021 10:11:37 GMT
Do you seriously think that Ilhan Omar (and I talk specifically about her and not any other person you mentioned) is not anti-semitic? Well if it means anything, the Synagogue in her District hosted a fundraiser for her last year, and the Rabbi was an honorary Co-Chair of her re-election committee, so it doesn’t appear that they have a problem with her. is he Neturei Karta or something like that?
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Post by rcronald on Oct 8, 2021 10:12:51 GMT
Do you seriously think that Ilhan Omar (and I talk specifically about her and not any other person you mentioned) is not anti-semitic? In a nutshell no I don't if not ms. “it’s all about the benjamins” Then who is?
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 8, 2021 10:13:39 GMT
Well if it means anything, the Synagogue in her District hosted a fundraiser for her last year, and the Rabbi was an honorary Co-Chair of her re-election committee, so it doesn’t appear that they have a problem with her. is he Neturei Karta or something like that? I haven’t the faintest idea, he was just interviewed in a New York Times profile of her prior to the Minnesota primary last year.
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