obsie
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Post by obsie on Jun 8, 2018 17:52:03 GMT
With Cork, better I think to add Ballincollig-Carrigaline to the city, with whatever territory is needed around Glanmire to make up two city seats (north/south, Shandon/St. Finbarr's), add Bandon-Kinsale to West Cork (South West Cork), and add Blarney-Macroom to Kanturk-Mallow and whatever additional territory around Charleville to make up the numbers (North West Cork), with the remainder forming East Cork. Adding Youghal on its own to north Cork isn't a good idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 18:06:03 GMT
BZZZZZZZZZT! *Never* use that phrase within hearing of Irishmen and women. "These islands" seems to be the preferred way of avoiding something long winded like "Northwest European Archipelago" or something like that. What if I'm in Hong Kong talking to an Irish colleague? Must I refer to 'those islands' in which case he will wonder what the fuck I'm talking about. The best way to avoid something long winded is to not pander to over-sensitive arseholes and to call things by their correct name. I note that some British people of a Eurosceptic disposition like to try and deny the geographical reality that Great Britain is in Europe. Will you indulge them in the same way? Terms equating to "British Isles" have been used since classical times and there is no satisfactory alternative. Even "Great Britain and Ireland" (or similar) suffers from the unresolvable problem of which comes first. |
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Post by islington on Jun 8, 2018 18:37:46 GMT
With Cork, better I think to add Ballincollig-Carrigaline to the city, with whatever territory is needed around Glanmire to make up two city seats (north/south, Shandon/St. Finbarr's), add Bandon-Kinsale to West Cork (South West Cork), and add Blarney-Macroom to Kanturk-Mallow and whatever additional territory around Charleville to make up the numbers (North West Cork), with the remainder forming East Cork. Adding Youghal on its own to north Cork isn't a good idea. I agree about Youghal; I originally wanted to balance up the Cobh and Mallow seats by transferring some EDs from the northern end of Cobh LEA but the numbers are fairly tight and I couldn't make it work. Transferring Youghal was very much a second-best option. I did think briefly about having two Cork City seats by putting the Ballincollig-Carrigaline LEA in with Cork, because it's clearly the southern suburbs of the City, but I gave up on the idea because it overloaded the Cork seats with territory south of the Lee and meant that the 'Cork North' seat would have included a lot of areas that were clearly in the southern part of the city. But don't let me deter anyone from devising alternative plans. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 8, 2018 18:44:27 GMT
So, when I'm in Hong Kong chatting with a Japanese colleague, I have to say "the jet stream is descending over these islands"? Is "North America" also verboten? "Iberia"? "Scandinavia"? Almost certainly not. But the Irish can be very sensitive about the term "British" being extended to cover Ireland as well as GB. Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? |
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Post by islington on Jun 8, 2018 19:21:36 GMT
Almost certainly not. But the Irish can be very sensitive about the term "British" being extended to cover Ireland as well as GB. Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? |
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Post by islington on Jun 8, 2018 19:23:08 GMT
Almost certainly not. But the Irish can be very sensitive about the term "British" being extended to cover Ireland as well as GB. Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? Certainly not in the 1840s when they complained of feeling a little peckish. |
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Post by greenchristian on Jun 8, 2018 19:28:55 GMT
What if I'm in Hong Kong talking to an Irish colleague? Must I refer to 'those islands' in which case he will wonder what the fuck I'm talking about. The best way to avoid something long winded is to not pander to over-sensitive arseholes and to call things by their correct name. I note that some British people of a Eurosceptic disposition like to try and deny the geographical reality that Great Britain is in Europe. Will you indulge them in the same way? Terms equating to "British Isles" have been used since classical times and there is no satisfactory alternative. Even "Great Britain and Ireland" (or similar) suffers from the unresolvable problem of which comes first. How is that "unresolvable"? Surely nobody is going to seriously complain about a formulation where the island which is both several times bigger and several times more populated comes first? |
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obsie
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Post by obsie on Jun 8, 2018 19:29:30 GMT
With Cork, better I think to add Ballincollig-Carrigaline to the city, with whatever territory is needed around Glanmire to make up two city seats (north/south, Shandon/St. Finbarr's), add Bandon-Kinsale to West Cork (South West Cork), and add Blarney-Macroom to Kanturk-Mallow and whatever additional territory around Charleville to make up the numbers (North West Cork), with the remainder forming East Cork. Adding Youghal on its own to north Cork isn't a good idea. I agree about Youghal; I originally wanted to balance up the Cobh and Mallow seats by transferring some EDs from the northern end of Cobh LEA but the numbers are fairly tight and I couldn't make it work. Transferring Youghal was very much a second-best option. I did think briefly about having two Cork City seats by putting the Ballincollig-Carrigaline LEA in with Cork, because it's clearly the southern suburbs of the City, but I gave up on the idea because it overloaded the Cork seats with territory south of the Lee and meant that the 'Cork North' seat would have included a lot of areas that were clearly in the southern part of the city. But don't let me deter anyone from devising alternative plans. There is the issue of the planned expansion of the Cork city boundary - the city and county councils have been squabbling over the issue, with the city council hankering after greater prestige given by a 200,000 population and the county council fearing the loss of business rates - which has largely been settled in favour of the city:
Cork City South East would probably be the best to transfer (26,750) plus Turner's Cross D and the Ballyphehane EDs. On the north side, you have Rathcooney and St. Mary's with a combined population of 13,339. Ballincollig and Douglas might be a possible name for the southern seat - Tramore Valley might be a better option instead of Douglas but it would cause confusion with the better-known town in Waterford.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 20:15:08 GMT
Terms equating to "British Isles" have been used since classical times and there is no satisfactory alternative. Even "Great Britain and Ireland" (or similar) suffers from the unresolvable problem of which comes first. How is that "unresolvable"? Surely nobody is going to seriously complain about a formulation where the island which is both several times bigger and several times more populated comes first? |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 20:29:33 GMT
Thanks for comments. Regarding the names - I meant them only as markers and I'm perfectly willing to accept that my London ears are tone-deaf to the way Irish people wish to express their own geography. So please keep the alternative suggestions coming. The next batch consists of the two counties of Galway and Roscommon with a combined population of 314718 = 3.03 = 3 seats. 23 - Galway: 102469Galway City (except Ballybaan ED): 63231 Conamara LEA: 39238 25 - Roscommon: 104559This is a very straightforward seat. Roscommon (the whole county): 64065 Tuam LEA: 40494 I think you've done a great job of these and balanced it all well, making it an interesting thread, but as you say, the names can be improved. The county/county town or city ambiguity is one you haven't really handled. A Galway constituency would probably be understood as covering the county, not just the city. For a guide on this, look at Limerick. They have Limerick city and Limerick county and that's the way to go. Also, given the parochial nature of Irish politics, there's no way you'd get away with having a Roscommon seat 40% of which is not in the county. You wouldn't get away with that in Great Britain either, so why try it in Ireland? Roscommon and North Galway. |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 20:37:39 GMT
Almost certainly not. But the Irish can be very sensitive about the term "British" being extended to cover Ireland as well as GB. Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? Fun, but few people outside England will regard Dublin/Cork/Galway etc as British. The Americans will probably spit their corn beef, Irish Car Bomb and cabbage Saint Patrick's Day meal deal out in horror at such a suggestion. The rest of the world will have their Irish pubs and many, especially in continental Europe and North America, will be positive on Irishness but will have some vaguely anti-English thing going on based on lager louts, mostly from England, but also from the other 3 UK countries (the latter of which will be just understood as "English" anyway.) |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 21:05:33 GMT
BZZZZZZZZZT! *Never* use that phrase within hearing of Irishmen and women. "These islands" seems to be the preferred way of avoiding something long winded like "Northwest European Archipelago" or something like that. What if I'm in Hong Kong talking to an Irish colleague? Must I refer to 'those islands' in which case he will wonder what the fuck I'm talking about. The best way to avoid something long winded is to not pander to over-sensitive arseholes and to call things by their correct name. I note that some British people of a Eurosceptic disposition like to try and deny the geographical reality that Great Britain is in Europe. Will you indulge them in the same way? Very few people outside the islands either know nor care about the internal politics. The further you get away from the place the less important it becomes. England is often used to mean the whole lot, much as Scots may bristle at it. Great Britain is often used, incorrectly, for the UK as a whole. Sea of Japan seemed perfectly fine to me until I started interacting with Koreans in Kazakhstan a few years back and they went apesh-t about it. "America", similarly seems fine to almost all English speakers, but a lot of Latinos will get annoyed about it, insisting that it be used for the whole continent. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 8, 2018 21:27:14 GMT
What if I'm in Hong Kong talking to an Irish colleague? Must I refer to 'those islands' in which case he will wonder what the fuck I'm talking about. The best way to avoid something long winded is to not pander to over-sensitive arseholes and to call things by their correct name. I note that some British people of a Eurosceptic disposition like to try and deny the geographical reality that Great Britain is in Europe. Will you indulge them in the same way? Very few people outside the islands either know nor care about the internal politics. The further you get away from the place the less important it becomes. England is often used to mean the whole lot, much as Scots may bristle at it. Great Britain is often used, incorrectly, for the UK as a whole. Sea of Japan seemed perfectly fine to me until I started interacting with Koreans in Kazakhstan a few years back and they went apesh-t about it. "America", similarly seems fine to almost all English speakers, but a lot of Latinos will get annoyed about it, insisting that it be used for the whole continent. The difference being that you know what they think and you care about it. I don't. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 21:44:47 GMT
Almost certainly not. But the Irish can be very sensitive about the term "British" being extended to cover Ireland as well as GB. Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? Irish people are not British. |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 21:53:19 GMT
Very few people outside the islands either know nor care about the internal politics. The further you get away from the place the less important it becomes. England is often used to mean the whole lot, much as Scots may bristle at it. Great Britain is often used, incorrectly, for the UK as a whole. Sea of Japan seemed perfectly fine to me until I started interacting with Koreans in Kazakhstan a few years back and they went apesh-t about it. "America", similarly seems fine to almost all English speakers, but a lot of Latinos will get annoyed about it, insisting that it be used for the whole continent. The difference being that you know what they think and you care about it. I don't. But that's exactly what I mean by the "less important" bit. Time was when my Irish/Scottish blood would have bristled at being lumped into an English category. After travelling a bit further and seeing similar situations and realising how unimportant they are in the grand scale of things, I really don't care. Koreans are going to stomp their feet and insist it isn't the Sea of Japan, Japanese and the wider world will insist it is. Irish will stomp their feet and insist it isn't the British Isles, the wider world and English people, including you will say that that doesn't matter. I've been around the block enough to know that the people in the first categories are wasting their time. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 8, 2018 21:54:04 GMT
Well, they are British whether they like it or not and so are these islands. And since when has the life of an Englishman been predicated on something as trivial as what upsetz the bloody Irish? Irish people are not British. Oh yes they are. This is the British Isles inhabited by the British. Broad brush terms but the obvious description. Nothing to do with race and nationality any more than America and the Americans is. |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 22:00:59 GMT
Irish people are not British. . Broad brush terms but the obvious description. Nothing to do with race and nationality any more than America and the Americans is. If you're insisting on the use of the use of The British Isles for the entire archipelago that's fair enough. If you're insisting that someone from Dublin, Galway, Cork, Limerick etc is really British, then that will never fly even in England. Only the BNP, while pushing for "Eire" to rejoin the UK, seemed to tilt in that direction and even they seemed pretty lukewarm about the idea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 22:11:41 GMT
Irish people are not British. Oh yes they are. This is the British Isles inhabited by the British. Broad brush terms but the obvious description. Nothing to do with race and nationality any more than America and the Americans is. Oh go away. "British Isles" does not mean that every last inch is "British". Ireland is Ireland is Ireland. Not Britain, British or owt like that. We're only called "Great Britain" to differentiate ourselves from Brittany, it means nothing. Nationalism, and particularly your blinkered brand of boring isolated little islander white nationalism, is tedious bullshit of the worst kind. Ireland is Ireland, the Irish are Irish. Owt else is bunkum. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 8, 2018 22:32:30 GMT
Oh yes they are. This is the British Isles inhabited by the British. Broad brush terms but the obvious description. Nothing to do with race and nationality any more than America and the Americans is. Oh go away. "British Isles" does not mean that every last inch is "British". Ireland is Ireland is Ireland. Not Britain, British or owt like that. We're only called "Great Britain" to differentiate ourselves from Brittany, it means nothing. Nationalism, and particularly your blinkered brand of boring isolated little islander white nationalism, is tedious bullshit of the worst kind. Ireland is Ireland, the Irish are Irish. Owt else is bunkum. Ireland is a separate country but it is found in the British Isles. The British Isles is a geographic term. The British refer to the people found in the British isles. Americans are found in the Americas or in the USA depending on context. I am not blinkered or boring because I actually move about a bit and have been to places and have lived abroad. I am a bit isolated at present within the context of living in a remote place and because I live on an island which is a primary original meaning. Islanders are different. It is not a 'Little Island' in any form of comparison being way up in the top 10% by size. If the British are not really British, how is it that the Irish can be Irish? |
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Post by therealriga on Jun 8, 2018 22:45:12 GMT
Ireland is a separate country but it is found in the British Isles. The British Isles is a geographic term. The British refer to the people found in the British isles. Americans are found in the Americas or in the USA depending on context. If the British are not really British, how is it that the Irish can be Irish? While you're correct about the American thing, in English, American is rarely understood the former way. Stop people in England and ask them where an American is from and 99% will tell you the USA. That answers your last question. Most Anglophones would consider a Colombian as being from The Americas, but not American as the latter term is usually understood a different way. |
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