|
|
Post by beastofbedfordshire on Mar 13, 2018 11:31:36 GMT
One would hope that the messy election results in Europe has quietened support for these alternate systems.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Mar 13, 2018 11:35:55 GMT
Our own FPTP system doesn't deliver "decisive" results as often as it used to.
|
|
|
|
Post by beastofbedfordshire on Mar 13, 2018 11:41:43 GMT
Our own FPTP system doesn't deliver "decisive" results as often as it used to. It's not perfect but even with hung parliaments, the government is far more stable than our European counterparts. I have little doubt that a lib-lab coalition would last for a full 5 year term. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 11:44:56 GMT
Our own FPTP system doesn't deliver "decisive" results as often as it used to. It's not perfect but even with hung parliaments, the government is far more stable than our European counterparts. I have little doubt that a lib-lab coalition would last for a full 5 year term. doesn't feel very strong and stable. There are hung councils more stable than this government. |
|
|
|
Post by beastofbedfordshire on Mar 13, 2018 11:49:57 GMT
It's not perfect but even with hung parliaments, the government is far more stable than our European counterparts. I have little doubt that a lib-lab coalition would last for a full 5 year term. doesn't feel very strong and stable. There are hung councils more stable than this government. It's still a bastion of stability compared with Germany or whatever mess they come with in Italy. |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Mar 13, 2018 12:07:50 GMT
Actually, arguably the problem with Germany is that they are too preoccupied about "stability".
The obvious way to go after the last election - and what would have happened in many countries - was a CDU(CSU) minority government.
But for fairly obvious historical reasons, that option is still "verboten" there.
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Mar 13, 2018 12:20:53 GMT
The problem is there is no such system as "proportional representation" so the polls overstate the support. People may say they are vaguely in favour of a more proportional system, but they don't all agree what that system should be. Once you pick a specific system (whether it is AV, STV, party lists or anything else), you inevitably lose some of the support for "PR" in general. I once asked someone which method of PR she supported. The answer was 'the most proportional one' but she also wanted independents elected. I fear this is a common reaction. |
|
|
|
Post by thirdchill on Mar 13, 2018 12:43:28 GMT
Secondly, there was also a notable "punish Clegg for propping up the Tories" thing going on with some sections of the electorate. Those voters would most likely have switched, and the kind of voter who voted in favour of AV but would have wanted to punish the Lib Dems for propping up Labour is almost certainly a lot smaller. Don't know about that, there would definitely have been a significant 'punish the Lib Dems for propping up a party in power that had lost it's majority and been in power for 13 years' vote. Particularly if labour was behind the conservatives in terms of seats. And the PR referendum would have been portrayed, whether fairly or unfairly, as a 'keep the conservatives out of office' stitch-up. |
|
mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,695
|
Post by mboy on Mar 13, 2018 13:14:05 GMT
Yes. There's a huge tendency for the Left to reverse engineer everything that happened during the Coalition to make it fit the narrative that everything would have been great and different if somehow it hadn't been formed. The AV and Brexit referendums how how they are fought and won by reactionary forces, and the hypothetical PR referendum would have been no different. Sad fact of the matter was that the voters were too susceptible at that time to wild claims about how electoral reform would destroy fair democracy in this country. I happen to believe that now, with the Coalition now seen in a much better light, the public would probably vote for electoral reform as the "stable government" fox has been shot very dead.
|
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 13, 2018 14:42:19 GMT
Secondly, there was also a notable "punish Clegg for propping up the Tories" thing going on with some sections of the electorate. Those voters would most likely have switched, and the kind of voter who voted in favour of AV but would have wanted to punish the Lib Dems for propping up Labour is almost certainly a lot smaller. Don't know about that, there would definitely have been a significant 'punish the Lib Dems for propping up a party in power that had lost it's majority and been in power for 13 years' vote. Particularly if labour was behind the conservatives in terms of seats. And the PR referendum would have been portrayed, whether fairly or unfairly, as a 'keep the conservatives out of office' stitch-up. And I didn't say that such voters didn't exist. My point was that the voters who would have taken that view were predominantly people who voted against AV anyway. Giving them extra motivation to vote that way doesn't change the result. A PR referendum proposed by a Lib-Lab government could have very plausibly flipped a lot of Labour areas into voting for electoral reform, without massively increasing the anti-reform majority elsewhere. It's entirely possible that it's nowhere near enough for electoral reform to win the referendum, but it seems likely that the result would at least have been closer. |
|
|
|
Post by afleitch on Mar 15, 2018 21:04:38 GMT
Brown steps down. David Miliband becomes PM. Still an SNP landslide in 2011 but met with federalism at the UK level. No St Andrew's agreement. No independence referendum. No fixed term parliament act.
|
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 17, 2018 15:08:53 GMT
Would the referendum been about PR or AV?
I voted No to AV as I am opposed to preference systems. But I would vote for an AMS type system
|
|
|
|
Post by timrollpickering on Mar 17, 2018 15:52:22 GMT
As I posted at the end of the first page, it would almost certainly have been AV - within Westminster and Whitehall circles there had been convergence on AV as the alternate option for a number of years and the preparation had all been in that direction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 16:17:27 GMT
I voted for AV at Westminster in the referendum and would do so again.
The fears that many on the Right had about the consequences were completely ill-founded, as I suspect the last two general elections would have demonstrated very clearly had they been fought under that system.
|
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 17, 2018 18:02:16 GMT
As I posted at the end of the first page, it would almost certainly have been AV - within Westminster and Whitehall circles there had been convergence on AV as the alternate option for a number of years and the preparation had all ben in that direction. It would have still been lost then. A lot of Labour people are very anti AV |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 17, 2018 19:30:13 GMT
As I posted at the end of the first page, it would almost certainly have been AV - within Westminster and Whitehall circles there had been convergence on AV as the alternate option for a number of years and the preparation had all been in that direction. It would have still been lost then. A lot of Labour people are very anti AV A lot of Labour people are very anti electoral reform of any kind, mostly because it threatens two-party dominance. |
|
|
|
Post by swanarcadian on Mar 17, 2018 19:40:17 GMT
Perhaps we would have actually had a Tory landslide in 2015 had Labour and the Lib Dems managed to cobble together a coalition five years earlier. It could have been like 1995-7 in reverse, with seats like Feltham & Heston, Cardiff South & Penarth and Heywood & Middleton changing hands in the by-elections.
|
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2018 21:54:48 GMT
I voted for AV at Westminster in the referendum and would do so again. The fears that many on the Right had about the consequences were completely ill-founded, as I suspect the last two general elections would have demonstrated very clearly had they been fought under that system. So did I, but I wouldn't ever move off FPTP again under any circumstances for any type of elections. |
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 18, 2018 15:01:11 GMT
It would have still been lost then. A lot of Labour people are very anti AV A lot of Labour people are very anti electoral reform of any kind, mostly because it threatens two-party dominance. I agree. But I'm talking those who do support reform - on the whole Labour electoral reformers are more likely to opt for something closer to AMS and are very suspicious of preference systems which we see as giving a boost to the LibDems for being everyone's second favourites.... |
|
