Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 6:02:32 GMT
Given that the Anglo Irish treaty created a political split which endures to this day, it is hard to accept the notion of de Valera as an anti treaty pied piper. He was clearly opportunistic and duplicitous in his positioning but anti-treatyism reflected a genuine and widespread (if not majority) sentiment that the treaty was a betrayal of the revolution. As for Collins, surely his biggest punishment was not to be shot dead in Cork but to have his legacy claimed by the mediocre Fine Gael and latterly by awful hacks like Leo Varadkar. Maybe he would have made something better had he lived, but given the feebleness of the movement without him he would have had to do a lot of personal heavy lifting. There is also the well-known phenomenon of dead leaders being exalted and obtaining a mythical character. Collins was a gifted guerilla leader and had sound political instincts, but there is no guarantee he would have developed into a great statesman (in fact its rather unlikely). As so often the myth clouds the man. There's nothing mythical about Collin's reputation. De Valera role in 1921-1923 and subsequent political career on the other hand raises several awkward questions. As you point out Collins had sound political instincts, I do think in a peacetime situation he would have had the capacity to make deals and compromises. Remember it was his efforts which enabled the nationalists to set up a very successful government in parallel during the period 1919-1921. Dev was of course in America for most of this time so couldn't take the credit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 6:06:48 GMT
*Extremely Gerry Adams voice* They haven't gone away, you know? True the UVF and UDA are still around conducting their criminal activities (drug dealing etc) as before. |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 19, 2017 8:32:01 GMT
Given that the Anglo Irish treaty created a political split which endures to this day, it is hard to accept the notion of de Valera as an anti treaty pied piper. He was clearly opportunistic and duplicitous in his positioning but anti-treatyism reflected a genuine and widespread (if not majority) sentiment that the treaty was a betrayal of the revolution. As for Collins, surely his biggest punishment was not to be shot dead in Cork but to have his legacy claimed by the mediocre Fine Gael and latterly by awful hacks like Leo Varadkar. Maybe he would have made something better had he lived, but given the feebleness of the movement without him he would have had to do a lot of personal heavy lifting.It might well have developed differently had he been around to shape it, and Irish party political history. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jul 19, 2017 14:07:18 GMT
You can't really blame Collins for the shape of the pro-Treaty movement and what it eventually became, that's due to Cosgrave, O'Higgins, Blyth, and others who were in government after the Civil War
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iolo
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Post by iolo on Jul 19, 2017 14:20:01 GMT
You can't really blame Collins for the shape of the pro-Treaty movement and what it eventually became, that's due to Cosgrave, O'Higgins, Blyth, and others who were in government after the Civil War I went over to the Republic when very young, with a lot of books on sex, and a few on Republicanism. Guess which were taken from me! Some of those republican books would be worth money now, too! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 21:38:38 GMT
You can't really blame Collins for the shape of the pro-Treaty movement and what it eventually became, that's due to Cosgrave, O'Higgins, Blyth, and others who were in government after the Civil War You can't blame Collins, dead men cannot influence the government of their country not even Ireland.... |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jul 19, 2017 22:05:02 GMT
Yeah, that's my point
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jul 20, 2017 0:35:10 GMT
There are many dead men who have influenced the government of their country. Chavez, Ghandi, Franco, Mao, Aquino...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 5:14:31 GMT
There are many dead men who have influenced the government of their country. Chavez, Ghandi, Franco, Mao, Aquino... No I think you confuse this with their influence during their lifetimes, show me one thing they did after they died that influenced how their countries were governed ?
They may be one exception - North Korea - whose head of state remains Kim il Sung, who despite his death in 1994 has been its "Eternal President" since 1998
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iolo
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Post by iolo on Jul 20, 2017 12:05:16 GMT
You can't really blame Collins for the shape of the pro-Treaty movement and what it eventually became, that's due to Cosgrave, O'Higgins, Blyth, and others who were in government after the Civil War I went over to the Republic when very young, with a lot of books on sex, and a few on Republicanism. Guess which were taken from me! Some of those republican books would be worth money now, too! And, as I thought I'd already added, the song said they'd 'crown DeValera king of Ireland', and at the time he was at least President. - of what, let's face it, was a colony of Vatican City! |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 27, 2017 22:48:39 GMT
Imagine an alternative Ireland where the Taioseach is none other than The Cruiser...
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jul 28, 2017 16:57:39 GMT
That would require quite an imagination...
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Post by hiberno on Jul 28, 2017 21:34:56 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Aug 2, 2017 10:39:21 GMT
That would require quite an imagination... In a world where executive power has found itself in the clammy hands of Biffo, it possibly doesn't require as much imagination as you'd think! Although it would be grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre and unprecedented anyway... |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Aug 2, 2017 10:42:31 GMT
People who doubt his brilliance quickly forget that he is the cause of the only recorded battle between the Republic of Ireland and Katanga. |
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