Lib Dems

[albion]

Jul 1, 2017 16:23:22 GMT right said:

Jul 1, 2017 15:59:34 GMT thetop said:

Any position is 'respecting' the result, and a referendum result is no more sacrosanct than a general election result, which you'd have us devolve into a one-party state following this ludicrous thinking. Let me remind you that the only way any anti-Brexit majority would come about is through democracy.

What on earth are you talking about? Are the Lib Dems now revoking democracy because they want to represent a section of the electorate who are anti-Brexit, and hope to win more over to that position?

Let's make this simple, just because a couple of million people want something (reversing a referendum or more power to a unaccountable supranational bureaucracy) doesn't mean it's automatically democratic. Just because a view wants less democratic control in running the state, as you do in this case, does not make it illegitimate. There are plenty of times I think more democracy is not the best answer, and I think that applies to most people.

Iain Dale is right to call Remainers undemocratic, as they want less democracy. He would be wrong to say that their views were illegitimate, but he didn't.

This has to be one of the most incoherent posts ever. A position by the LDs that the final deal should be the subject of a referendum is no more undemocratic than the initial vote. Either the people approve the deal or they do not. Either way the people have the final say. As for Dale; a man who was formally cautioned by the police for assaulting a pensioner exercising his democratic rights can hardly pose as an expert on the subject.

[Adam in Stroud]

Jul 1, 2017 16:23:22 GMT right said:

Jul 1, 2017 15:59:34 GMT thetop said:

Any position is 'respecting' the result, and a referendum result is no more sacrosanct than a general election result, which you'd have us devolve into a one-party state following this ludicrous thinking. Let me remind you that the only way any anti-Brexit majority would come about is through democracy.

What on earth are you talking about? Are the Lib Dems now revoking democracy because they want to represent a section of the electorate who are anti-Brexit, and hope to win more over to that position?

Let's make this simple, just because a couple of million people want something (reversing a referendum or more power to a unaccountable supranational bureaucracy) doesn't mean it's automatically democratic. Just because a view wants less democratic control in running the state, as you do in this case, does not make it illegitimate. There are plenty of times I think more democracy is not the best answer, and I think that applies to most people.

Iain Dale is right to call Remainers undemocratic, as they want less democracy. He would be wrong to say that their views were illegitimate, but he didn't.

No we don't. Complete nonsense and a prime example of begging the question in its original sense. Demonstrate that the European Commission has no democratic control and you may have a case, but you have not dome so.

There's absolutely no reason at all why being in the EU has to involve less democratic control in the running of the state at all, there is a European parliament and Council made up of the representatives of democratically elected national parliaments.

It is also the case that in the modern world democracy is not only about exercising control over the executive of the state but also over multi-national corporations.  There is a strong argument that no European nation is large enough to do so without co-operating with other nations and the EU provides a forum to do so.

Whereas anyone who maintains that a vote taken at a particular date should be indefinitely binding is arguing for democracy to cease from that date on.

[right]

Jun 30, 2017 8:09:11 GMT right said:

Iain Dale has this interesting snippet:

So Vince Cable is about to be coronated. All his opposition fell by the wayside, one by one. In many, ways I expect him to be an effective leader, and I think he will offer some surprises. In interviews with me, he’s always been rather more Eurosceptic than some of his colleagues. He’s not one to utter the famous Liberal Democrat phrase: “Of course we must respect the result of the referendum, but…”.

Unlike most of his fellow LibDems, he seems actually to be a democrat. He’s spoken out against a second or deal-endorsing referendum in the past, but no one really noticed because he wasn’t an MP at the time. Time will tell if he will change his party’s policy.

Is this actually true?  Iain Dale has in the past fought Norman Lamb, so is he saying that Cable is more accepting of the referendum than Lamb?  I vaguely remember some talk about EU immigration needing to be lower, but with that important caveat I thought that Cable was a bog standard Continuity Remainer - at least in Lib Dem terms. 

The Lib Dems could quite easily carve out a niche - at least in England - of being the most pro-European of the mainstream parties while actually ditching second referendums and hopes of rejoining in the next decade - and there doesn't look like there will be a bidding war for members' votes to get in the way of that.  The Remainers have nowhere else to go.  But even assuming Cable is more Eurosceptic than other Lib Dems, would he as a caretaker who's not stood for election be able to pull that shift off?

Returning to the actual subject of the thread

Vince Cable sets out his views on Brexit, immigration and freedom of movement

An interesting point is this:

I have observed that other member states impose restrictions on free movement. Germany, for example, restricts the free movement of professional staff. It seems entirely reasonable to look at ways through which the UK can remain within the single market – and, I hope, the European Union – but manages migration in a way that better deals with some of the real social impacts on local communities. I have suggested a variety of options, including restricting admission to those with jobs to come to. The failure to consider reforms of this kind may well have contributed to the Brexit vote.

I believe that Brexit would be a disaster for Britain, but we have to recognise that we lost the vote last year. If we can help to prevent it, even at this late stage, by looking in an open-minded way at reforms such as these, it seems to me that the prize is worth the effort.

This seems like a small retreat from the re-referendum line.  He still wants to be in the EU, but is asking for what (in this timeframe) is pretty unlikely - free movement reform within the EU within two years.

[right]

This seems to be pointing towards some form of soft Brexit:

Desperate May asks Lib Dems for help to win crucial votes

Labour would probably be more amenable on Brexit votes as Lib Dems still seem in a bit of a funk and Labour has to prove itself a government in waiting, but you can't have Corbyn looking too Prime Ministerial.

[cogload]

The Labour party will support the Tories on the undead Repeal Bill apparently. Panic over.

I don't know why people are flobbering over this. Corbyn is as pro Brexit as Bill Cash.

[right]

Jul 4, 2017 17:59:42 GMT cogload said:

The Labour party will support the Tories on the undead Repeal Bill apparently. Panic over.

I don't know why people are flobbering over this. Corbyn is as pro Brexit as Bill Cash.

His party and constituency ain't.

Besides, there are plenty of chances for Labour and the SNP to get together with backbench Eurosceptics.

[boogieeck]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40842017

possibly discussed elsewhere but given my (today) rant about the young being shafted on motoring insurance , I would be remiss not to note that youthful Vince Cable is also seeking to address the issue of intergenerational justice.

[right]

From The Mirror Lib Dems braced for huge Brexit row at annual party conference in Bournemouth
  

[albion]

Sept 5, 2017 12:54:42 GMT right said:

From The Mirror Lib Dems braced for huge Brexit row at annual party conference in Bournemouth
  

If this is the worst the Mirror can come up with (and the worst in store at LD conference) Labour and Conservative parties will be looking on in envy and quaking at the splits to be seen at their annual feuds.

[Devil Wincarnate]

It's behind the paywall in the Times, but searching for I've found the full story on, of all places, Mumsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

[offshore]

Oct 19, 2018 16:09:06 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

It's behind the paywall in the Times, but searching for I've found the full story on, of all places, Mumsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

I don't think this belongs in the Brexit forum.

[mboy]

Looks like Aimee Challenor will fit well in to today's Lib Dems.

[Adam in Stroud]

Oct 19, 2018 16:09:06 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

It's behind the paywall in the Times, but searching for I've found the full story on, of all places, Mumsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

Not happy about this at all.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Oct 19, 2018 16:21:51 GMT offshore said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:09:06 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

It's behind the paywall in the Times, but searching for I've found the full story on, of all places, Mumsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

I don't think this belongs in the Brexit forum.

You're right, I went searching for a Lib Dem thread, couldn't find a suitable one, and didn't spot the Brexit bit in my rush.  I'll re-post somewhere else.

[slon]

Oct 19, 2018 16:21:51 GMT offshore said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:09:06 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

It's behind the paywall in the Times, but searching for I've found the full story on, of all places, Mumsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

I don't think this belongs in the Brexit forum.

I don't think the Lib Dems belong in the Brexit forum

[offshore]

Oct 19, 2018 16:48:26 GMT slon said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:21:51 GMT offshore said:

I don't think this belongs in the Brexit forum.

I don't think the Lib Dems belong in the Brexit forum

We need a vote on that

[offshore]

Oct 19, 2018 16:42:34 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:21:51 GMT offshore said:

I don't think this belongs in the Brexit forum.

You're right, I went searching for a Lib Dem thread, couldn't find a suitable one, and didn't spot the Brexit bit in my rush.  I'll re-post somewhere else.

Thought that might be the case

[finsobruce]

Oct 19, 2018 16:58:42 GMT offshore said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:48:26 GMT slon said:

I don't think the Lib Dems belong in the Brexit forum

We need a vote on that

Or possibly two. 

[No Offence Alan]

Oct 19, 2018 16:58:42 GMT offshore said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:48:26 GMT slon said:

I don't think the Lib Dems belong in the Brexit forum

We need a vote on that

And then a second one if we don't like the answer.

[offshore]

Glad to see people know a feed line when they see it