mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 3, 2017 18:52:26 GMT
If Conservatives are now saying treating people from diverse backgrounds equally is a left wing agenda, no wonder the intellectual momentum is with the left. To be fair, the proposition that paupers should be treated equally with aristocrats was the literal origin of left-wing thought!
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 3, 2017 19:37:26 GMT
You might wonder from the above how the hell the SPD won Neukölln; the answer is that though they trailed the CDU in the south of the borough/constituency and the Left in the north, the CDU polled very badly in the north and the Left even worse in the south.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 3, 2017 23:30:33 GMT
Certainly the equalities agenda - but that was a case of following more than leading. The hard work was done by the social movements. I'm not convinced that there was much real change otherwise. Certainly nothing particularly left wing Well the 'equalities agenda' is certainly particularly left wing. Its become embedded in the British establishment and nomenklatura and Blair's governments ensured that those institutions lean heavily to the left. All major UK institutions now heavil;y push the left wing 'equality and diversity' agenda I am acknowledging that was one of the few distinctly left wing achievements.
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Oct 3, 2017 23:44:38 GMT
That is certainly an interesting case. No major attempts at tactical voting seem to have been made in Berlin or anywhere really. Just judging by the raw figures. I know it doesn't matter under MMP but there must be some political value attached to having a local man representing the party in the area. Or even just local (petty) pride over who gets a constituency seat. There does seem to be a small tactical vote in some places. Certainly the Greens do somewhat better on the constituency ballot in a few of the constituencies where they stand a chance of winning and a few constituency members for the CDU did a lot better than the list based on personal votes. Part of the reason there is so little tactical voting is that the parties don't really bother to encourage it. They would of course prefer to win more seats all else equal, but it can't distract from the effort to win more list votes.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 3, 2017 23:44:39 GMT
That is certainly an interesting case. No major attempts at tactical voting seem to have been made in Berlin or anywhere really. Just judging by the raw figures. I know it doesn't matter under MMP but there must be some political value attached to having a local man representing the party in the area. Or even just local (petty) pride over who gets a constituency seat. To be fair, it sounds like the Greens threw the kitchen sink at holding onto their one constituency seat, whilst the East Berlin seats are symbolically important to Die Linke as well. But most CDU and SPD Erststimme results are essentially random, and the FDP doesn't seem to care that it only gets in on the lists these days either. Before 2013 there was at least some tactical advantage for the big two to be able to hold onto their overhang mandates, but then the courts ruled that these had to be compensated too with even more 'balancing' seats.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Oct 4, 2017 0:16:09 GMT
You might wonder from the above how the hell the SPD won Neukölln; the answer is that though they trailed the CDU in the south of the borough/constituency and the Left in the north, the CDU polled very badly in the north and the Left even worse in the south. Any chance of a key by party to the colour code?
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 4, 2017 1:56:40 GMT
If Conservatives are now saying treating people from diverse backgrounds equally is a left wing agenda, no wonder the intellectual momentum is with the left. To be fair, the proposition that paupers should be treated equally with aristocrats was the literal origin of left-wing thought! The contrary!: Not the poor, the rich (ThirdTier/bourgeoisie) demanded juridical equality with the privileged aristocracy!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 4, 2017 7:32:49 GMT
You might wonder from the above how the hell the SPD won Neukölln; the answer is that though they trailed the CDU in the south of the borough/constituency and the Left in the north, the CDU polled very badly in the north and the Left even worse in the south. Any chance of a key by party to the colour code? Blue-CDU Red- SPD Green-well, Green Purple-Die Linke
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john07
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Post by john07 on Oct 4, 2017 9:50:38 GMT
Any chance of a key by party to the colour code? Blue-CDU Red- SPD Green-well, Green Purple-Die Linke Thanks. I thought for a horrible moment that purple was AfD!
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Oct 4, 2017 10:26:50 GMT
Blue-CDU Red- SPD Green-well, Green Purple-Die Linke Thanks. I thought for a horrible moment that purple was AfD! It must have been a relief for you then to discover that all these areas in East Berlin weren't carried by some nasty extremist party who act as an apologist for a former totalitarian regime.. oh wait (anyway isn't it obvious to anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention? )
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 4, 2017 10:42:34 GMT
Thanks. I thought for a horrible moment that purple was AfD! It must have been a relief for you then to discover that all these areas in East Berlin weren't carried by some nasty extremist party who act as an apologist for a former totalitarian regime.. oh wait ( anyway isn't it obvious to anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention? ) Well yes, but not everybody is paying attention.
And it's pointless to be rude about it......
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 4, 2017 12:06:15 GMT
Saxony-Anhalt's PrimeMinistzer Haseloff (CDU) meant in an InterView, that for example in Halle Afd didn't succeed in the deprived PlattenBau-areas, rather in fairly wealthy precincts. In Halle the DDR built once a big NewTown, also named "NewTown" (="Neustadt"): But the AfD performed relatively well there, as You can see here:
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2017 12:37:14 GMT
That is certainly an interesting case. No major attempts at tactical voting seem to have been made in Berlin or anywhere really. Just judging by the raw figures. I know it doesn't matter under MMP but there must be some political value attached to having a local man representing the party in the area. Or even just local (petty) pride over who gets a constituency seat. No there's plenty of tactical voting, it's just that the calculations are very different when you have two votes. In particular weak supporters of the CDU and SPD will often vote for their 'usual' party for the constituency and another party for the list. This is a tactical consideration, it just looks very different from the sort brought on by FPTP. There are also personal votes (e.g. Gregor Gysi has a substantial one and it is very visible on that map), which, as in Britain, are not the same thing at all.
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2017 14:03:09 GMT
Leading party on the list vote. Not entirely sure of the value of this (even more for Berlin than most places), but completeness and a useful way to get to know the data...
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2017 14:04:06 GMT
My main present for the moment, however, is of the same ballot but is definitely useful... The keys will be the ones used for the precinct maps. The SPD map even more weirdly even than normal, though with a new pattern in East Berlin that at first glance seems clearer at lower levels. Talking of new patterns, the Left polled better in Neukölln proper than almost everywhere in East Berlin!
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Oct 4, 2017 14:48:46 GMT
It must have been a relief for you then to discover that all these areas in East Berlin weren't carried by some nasty extremist party who act as an apologist for a former totalitarian regime.. oh wait ( anyway isn't it obvious to anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention? ) Well yes, but not everybody is paying attention.
And it's pointless to be rude about it......
I wouldn't worry John. When someone is that bitter and twisted, it is inevitable that obnoxious comments will be made.
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Post by tamar on Oct 4, 2017 15:03:35 GMT
The way the AfD and Green support patterns mirror each other so much is interesting, if not really surprising.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Oct 4, 2017 15:57:19 GMT
Saxony-Anhalt's PrimeMinistzer Haseloff (CDU) meant in an InterView, that for example in Halle Afd didn't succeed in the deprived PlattenBau-areas, rather in fairly wealthy precincts. In Halle the DDR built once a big NewTown, also named "NewTown" (="Neustadt"): But the AfD performed relatively well there, as You can see here: Oh great, not another Neustadt! Worth noting that ' Brief' in this map refers to postal votes. The only part of that city I've been to is the airport. To my shame I didn't know until a few years ago that it was not the same as the Halle where the tennis tournament takes place in the summer. Well yes, but not everybody is paying attention.
And it's pointless to be rude about it......
I wouldn't worry John. When someone is that bitter and twisted, it is inevitable that obnoxious comments will be made. Pete's point before he spoiled it with rudeness was a valid one... but if he'd been paying attention he'd have seen that DW and others had already made it earlier in the thread! Besides, the AfD did do rather well in the outer east part of the city at the state election last year (although they didn't actually top the poll in any constituency IIRC).
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2017 16:25:31 GMT
To my shame I didn't know until a few years ago that it was not the same as the Halle where the tennis tournament takes place in the summer. Yes, that is always confusing. Both are industrial towns as well! They even won a couple of direct seats in the city election, though were well behind in all this year.
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2017 16:40:00 GMT
Anyway, though it's true that Die Linke is riddled with embarrassing Ostalgie I'm not sure if it's really accurate to call it extremist or even Far Left. Foreign policy aside even Hard Left is pushing it these days. It's the history of their eastern wing (which is actually not as left wing as the western wing which o/c is an SPD splinter) and how the whole party reacts to it that makes them controversial, not their actual politics.
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