spqr
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Post by spqr on Nov 21, 2016 0:47:27 GMT
The old (and in Italy it is old) 'Vote for Change, Vote No' problem. A sort of Gattopardismo in reverse (" If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change"). |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 21, 2016 1:07:12 GMT
I never pretend. I never hide. That is most unusual, but there you go. I don't like these proposals. I don't think they are the answer to anything. I would vote against them because they are not the answer and because they would damage 'my side' and grant too much power to the next winners. The structural, inefficiency, nepoti[sti]c, corrupt and traditional faults in the system are not addressed. Fine, I accept that you are using this reasoning sincerely, but I still do not find this line of argument sound or a legitimate reason to use your right as an EU citizen to vote No. This argument would be levelled against any governing party that tries to get rid of perfect bicameralism. The Westminster system does not involve an upper house with equal powers, so why are you defending that system in the case of Italy?? Many of these things are addressed by the reforms, but obviously not fully solved. Much of the corruption would not be eradicated even by a 'perfect' new Constitution as that has always been carried out by extralegal means in any case. Yes, I often call that a 'Mediterranean majority bonus' since the only other countries I'm aware of that use a variant on this system currently are Greece and Malta (though the Maltese version is very mild and exists simply to prevent a wrong-winner result under STV), but the Italians can take the dubious honour of having invented it for nefarious purposes. Fifteen of the regions have very few and insignificant powers anyway. A referendum on making Italy a federation (but also a more Presidential republic) failed some years ago under Berlusconi. Do not presume to openly correct words in my posts. Take it up if you think I have made a typo or am plain wrong. Nepotic is a fine word with a long established usage. I don't like nepotistic and never use it. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Nov 21, 2016 1:54:27 GMT
Do not presume to openly correct words in my posts. Take it up if you think I have made a typo or am plain wrong. Nepotic is a fine word with a long established usage. I don't like nepotistic and never use it. Most of the references to 'nepotic' – used sincerely and in context – appear to date from even before you were born. Just because you prefer it doesn't make 'nepotistic' wrong or stop it from being the more modern, common, widely accepted and most importantly... the more understood form of the word. I thought I was a bit of a linguistic prescriptivist, but you really are taking the biscuit here. That edit was incidental anyway. Does this mean that you concede the points about bicameralism and corruption, since you fail to address them? |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 21, 2016 1:57:21 GMT
Do not presume to openly correct words in my posts. Take it up if you think I have made a typo or am plain wrong. Nepotic is a fine word with a long established usage. I don't like nepotistic and never use it. Most of the references to 'nepotic' – used sincerely and in context – appear to date from even before you were born. Just because you prefer it doesn't make 'nepotistic' wrong or stop it from being the more modern, common, widely accepted and most importantly... the more understood form of the word. I thought I was a bit of a linguistic prescriptivist, but you really are taking the biscuit here. That edit was incidental anyway. Does this mean that you concede the points about bicameralism and corruption, since you fail to address them? No, no and no! |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 21, 2016 2:02:34 GMT
Do not presume to openly correct words in my posts. Take it up if you think I have made a typo or am plain wrong. Nepotic is a fine word with a long established usage. I don't like nepotistic and never use it. Most of the references to 'nepotic' – used sincerely and in context – appear to date from even before you were born. Just because you prefer it doesn't make 'nepotistic' wrong or stop it from being the more modern, common, widely accepted and most importantly... the more understood form of the word. I thought I was a bit of a linguistic prescriptivist, but you really are taking the biscuit here. That edit was incidental anyway. Does this mean that you concede the points about bicameralism and corruption, since you fail to address them? You may choose to use an incorrect formation just because it is more common and I make no comment on that. All I said was I prefer my word and I shall continue to use it. You are free to carry on in error with no complaint from me. My COMPLAINT with you is on quoting me and having the temerity to correct MY WORD in your quote as if it were wrong when it was not. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 20:48:38 GMT
Beppe Grillo: "Those who support the Constitutional reform are the serial killers of our children's future."  |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 24, 2016 17:57:34 GMT
Grillo as a political force is a nice example of cumulative radicalisation in action; if Berlusconi is O.K then therefore... ah but then you wonder, given this, what the future holds for the USA?
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Post by Andrew_S on Nov 24, 2016 18:01:42 GMT
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Nov 25, 2016 17:46:18 GMT
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Nov 25, 2016 17:53:31 GMT
I see no reason why any non-Italian would support a "no". Unless you somehow had an interest in Italy not functioning.   |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 4, 2016 10:26:06 GMT
I see no reason why any non-Italian would support a "no". Unless you somehow had an interest in Italy not functioning. I see no reason why any "democrat" would support such an absurd assault on democracy. Italy is dysfunctional because Italian politicians are childish fuckwits and because Italian voters are idiots that keep voting for self-harm, not because of the system. But more importantly, given that far-right candidates are now winning elections across Europe, anyone who supports this as the time for constitutional changes that would give almost unstoppable power to anyone who wins an election, well anyone who supports that is nothing less than a dangerous fool. I'm genuinely astonished that some posters here think now is the time to strip a volatile country of its democratic checks and balances. I really do suggest reading the background to how the Weimar democracy was dismantled 1932-1935 in Germany...all of which was of course done in the name of breaking the democratic impasse that had deadlocked the Reichstag at that time. The parallels are stark. Wake up and vote No. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 4, 2016 12:24:43 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 12:32:52 GMT
Turnout at 12 is reported to be higher in Milan than in other major areas (ie Napoli).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 12:37:37 GMT
My reading of that is that turn out is a lot poorer in the south. Good news for Renzi if that continues?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 4, 2016 13:01:34 GMT
Beppe Grillo: "Those who support the Constitutional reform are the serial killers of our children's future." The irony of being metaphorically labelled a killer by an actual convicted killer. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 4, 2016 15:41:12 GMT
When do polls close?
When do we expects any results?
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tim
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Post by tim on Dec 4, 2016 15:45:12 GMT
When do polls close? When do we expects any results? Andrew Neil said on telly earlier today that polls closed 11pm Italian time (10pm GMT) He said there would be exit polls soon afterwards - unsure about when results will start to be announced |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 4, 2016 16:05:31 GMT
Interesting to see Odo clearly on the wrong side and for the wrong reasons..............yet again! These experts!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ? Far more surprising and disappointing to see mboy complain fail to grasp the issue. A free marketeer should be embracing the increased efficiency that will come with the weakening and streamlining of the Senate and the abolition of the provinces and the CNEL. A liberal should not be on the same side as the authoritarian Lega Nord and populist M5S. He's right that this isn't the time for a new Constitution. That's why these reforms will only amend just under a third of the articles in the existing one. Now some people on the No side are using the "doesn't go far enough" reasoning disingenuously. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 4, 2016 17:13:07 GMT
I'm a democrat before I'm a free-marketer, and I'm a democrat before I'm a liberal - therefore no free-market measure, nor any liberal measure, will ever be able to trump democracy in my vote. I also don't base my vote on how people I dislike are voting.
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Dec 4, 2016 17:35:40 GMT
I'm a democrat before I'm a free-marketer, and I'm a democrat before I'm a liberal - therefore no free-market measure, nor any liberal measure, will ever be able to trump democracy in my vote. I also don't base my vote on how people I dislike are voting.In a referendum (especially a close one) one can't do this anyway. When people are forced into a straightforward binary choice it is near-inevitable that they will have some bedfellows who are not to their liking. One thing that frustrated me about both the Scottish independence and EU referendums is that there were a lot of people who not only didn't understand this, but seemed to choose their vote based primarily on who else was on their 'side'. |
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