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Post by finsobruce on Sept 14, 2016 9:32:41 GMT
One of the best historical dramas - or, indeed, films of any kind - that I have seen in recent years is "Aferim!" by Radu Jude, about Roma slavery in Wallachia in the 1830s. It's meticulously researched and often very funny, though the ending is ghastly. It's rare to see a film where people of the past are allowed to speak for themselves, rather than being modern characters in fancy dress. Have you seen "A Time For Drunken Horses?"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 10:15:11 GMT
One of the best historical dramas - or, indeed, films of any kind - that I have seen in recent years is "Aferim!" by Radu Jude, about Roma slavery in Wallachia in the 1830s. It's meticulously researched and often very funny, though the ending is ghastly. It's rare to see a film where people of the past are allowed to speak for themselves, rather than being modern characters in fancy dress. Have you seen "A Time For Drunken Horses?" No I haven't - looks interesting.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 14, 2016 11:15:39 GMT
As with any other grouping or individual, you choose to be on the electoral roll or not, and accept the consequences and responsibilities that such a thing entails.
This concept already exists. The Harlot's Prerogative is not something to be expanded.
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Sept 14, 2016 11:15:56 GMT
This whole thread is bizarre on so many levels, with most of the posts displaying ignorance, either well-meaning or malicious,either of numbers or understanding of Romany/Traveller/Roma history or lifestyle. I suggest it be removed as it serves no real purpose beyond giving some people a chance to spout vile and ignorant abuse about a community they no little of, although that doesn't prevent a need to express themselves. As it happens,no serious study suggests anywhere near a million people of GTR background. The most agreed figure based on best analysis is around 300,000 (0.5%), though that might be a little high. I have worked with the Gypsy and Traveller communities for 22 years. I believe the 300,000 figure refers to the Gypsy community who still travel, it doesn't include those who have settled and doesn't included other travelling communities. As the boundary commission is about making sure that every vote is equal in terms of constituencies, (within fptp), its important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, and while there are several travelling traditions all face different pressures from the settled population, guaranteed representation through the option of a separate electoral list could be an option, why do we consider geographical constituencies as the only option for a representative parliament.
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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 14, 2016 12:06:43 GMT
Interesting. There was also Pádraig Mac Lochlainn TD just across the partition line, of course. And that movie looks like something I need to check out.
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Sept 14, 2016 12:31:54 GMT
I believe the 300,000 figure refers to the Gypsy community who still travel, it doesn't include those who have settled and doesn't included other travelling communities. As the boundary commission is about making sure that every vote is equal in terms of constituencies, (within fptp), its important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, and while there are several travelling traditions all face different pressures from the settled population, guaranteed representation through the option of a separate electoral list could be an option, why do we consider geographical constituencies as the only option for a representative parliament. Because what you are doing is separating us into something else, we are not thick you know we are capable of filling forms in and voting, if people do not want to vote they do not have to. As you said most Roma etc are settled, and I believe the voting patterns will be the exact same as the populace at large. What we don't need is some patronising helping hand that inadvertently starts to split what is a successfully integrated group. The likes of Kelly Brooke, Micheal Caine et al are doing fine without the need of special interest protection. Leave that to some other groups so they have a comfort blanket of shouting 'racism' when they have failed in life, mainly due to their inability to integrate. You have stated that the majority of Roma have settled, their is a reason for this and that unlike other European countries attitudes that forced the Roma to still travel, Britain took them in (by and large the integration as been good), the Roma settled took the language, the religion and integrated. Are you saying that a travelling lifestyle isn't something to be championed for those who choose it. The British treatment of travelling communities is far better than their treatment by much of continental Europe, I would question whether communities have been successfully 'integrated' and whether or not 'integration or assimilation is something to be welcomed or not though.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 14, 2016 12:39:42 GMT
While calling an entire group of people 'criminal scum' isn't helpful Perhaps, but given the staggeringly high level of criminality among the travelling community, much of it ignored, I am deeply unsympathetic towards the granting of special privileges. For the most part they are a bloody nuisance and cause trouble wherever they go. It is beyond me why anybody wants to encourage their activities.
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Sept 14, 2016 12:52:03 GMT
While calling an entire group of people 'criminal scum' isn't helpful Perhaps, but given the staggeringly high level of criminality among the travelling community, much of it ignored, I am deeply unsympathetic towards the granting of special privileges. For the most part they are a bloody nuisance and cause trouble wherever they go. It is beyond me why anybody wants to encourage their activities. In a country where all land, is owned as private property, there are going to be conflicts as traditional stopping places are out of bounds.
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 14, 2016 13:28:10 GMT
This whole thread is bizarre on so many levels, with most of the posts displaying ignorance, either well-meaning or malicious,either of numbers or understanding of Romany/Traveller/Roma history or lifestyle. I suggest it be removed as it serves no real purpose beyond giving some people a chance to spout vile and ignorant abuse about a community they no little of, although that doesn't prevent a need to express themselves. As it happens,no serious study suggests anywhere near a million people of GTR background. The most agreed figure based on best analysis is around 300,000 (0.5%), though that might be a little high. I have worked with the Gypsy and Traveller communities for 22 years. I believe the 300,000 figure refers to the Gypsy community who still travel, it doesn't include those who have settled and doesn't included other travelling communities. As the boundary commission is about making sure that every vote is equal in terms of constituencies, (within fptp), its important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, and while there are several travelling traditions all face different pressures from the settled population, guaranteed representation through the option of a separate electoral list could be an option, why do we consider geographical constituencies as the only option for a representative parliament. I cannot understand the concern with this. If they are bothered they will register and vote. If they are not bothered then why all this fuss? And what on earth do you mean by Gypsy and Traveller communities who don't travel. If they have taken settled residence they are no longer travellers by definition and no longer a separate community just part of the community where they live. Are we going to have lists of former airline staff/commercial travellers/military/merchant marine/diplomatic staff...........all of whom will have had special pressures, experiences, problems and threats during a difficult working life that was in many ways even more peripatetic and over longer distances and with more frequency? This is a daft thread about self-defining people who have a remedy in their hands and choose not to use it. They are not in any way an ethnic or religious group and even if they were I would give them no credence for that alone. This is a daft campaign with not a whit of common sense or need within it. This is shameless patronising virtue signalling of the very worst shoddy third rate sort and you should be ashamed of yourself. If anyone is gormless enough to introduce it to the HOC I hope it is laughed at before being kicked through the long grass and off a high cliff into the obscurity it deserves.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 14, 2016 13:34:29 GMT
Perhaps, but given the staggeringly high level of criminality among the travelling community, much of it ignored, I am deeply unsympathetic towards the granting of special privileges. For the most part they are a bloody nuisance and cause trouble wherever they go. It is beyond me why anybody wants to encourage their activities. In a country where all land, is owned as private property, there are going to be conflicts as traditional stopping places are out of bounds. The solution lies in paying for the use of land.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 14, 2016 13:38:27 GMT
Only 10% vote because the other 90% don't give a shit.
Trying to encourage people to vote when they couldn't care less is a waste of time and effort.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 13:44:54 GMT
This whole thread is bizarre on so many levels, with most of the posts displaying ignorance, either well-meaning or malicious,either of numbers or understanding of Romany/Traveller/Roma history or lifestyle. I suggest it be removed as it serves no real purpose beyond giving some people a chance to spout vile and ignorant abuse about a community they no little of, although that doesn't prevent a need to express themselves. As it happens,no serious study suggests anywhere near a million people of GTR background. The most agreed figure based on best analysis is around 300,000 (0.5%), though that might be a little high. I have worked with the Gypsy and Traveller communities for 22 years. I believe the 300,000 figure refers to the Gypsy community who still travel, it doesn't include those who have settled and doesn't included other travelling communities. As the boundary commission is about making sure that every vote is equal in terms of constituencies, (within fptp), its important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, and while there are several travelling traditions all face different pressures from the settled population, guaranteed representation through the option of a separate electoral list could be an option, why do we consider geographical constituencies as the only option for a representative parliament. You are incorrect, the 300,000 figure refers to the total community. I have been part of the attempt to collate figures for many years,1 million is a figure nobody I am aware of takes seriously.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Sept 14, 2016 14:41:01 GMT
And anyway, surely the gypsy and traveller community are just taking back control from a costly, dysfunctional and unaccountable bureaucracy.
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 14, 2016 15:33:05 GMT
Because what you are doing is separating us into something else, we are not thick you know we are capable of filling forms in and voting, if people do not want to vote they do not have to. As you said most Roma etc are settled, and I believe the voting patterns will be the exact same as the populace at large. What we don't need is some patronising helping hand that inadvertently starts to split what is a successfully integrated group. The likes of Kelly Brooke, Micheal Caine et al are doing fine without the need of special interest protection. Leave that to some other groups so they have a comfort blanket of shouting 'racism' when they have failed in life, mainly due to their inability to integrate. You have stated that the majority of Roma have settled, their is a reason for this and that unlike other European countries attitudes that forced the Roma to still travel, Britain took them in (by and large the integration as been good), the Roma settled took the language, the religion and integrated. Are you saying that a travelling lifestyle isn't something to be championed for those who choose it. The British treatment of travelling communities is far better than their treatment by much of continental Europe, I would question whether communities have been successfully 'integrated' and whether or not 'integration or assimilation is something to be welcomed or not though. I would most certainly say that a travelling lifestyle is NOT something to be championed any more than I would wish to champion someone living in a tent on the Lizard (with consent of land owner) or in a tree house in the Forest of Bowland. I am happy to tolerate the activity which has no effect on me, but why champion it? A travelling lifestyle is 'out-of-time' for 21stC when we have busy roads and little or no common land left. It causes problems with effective health care, education of children, land use, collateral damage and disruption on the roads. Those choosing to do it have opted out of every form of duty or responsibility but expect sites to be provided at great expense and all the benefits of a modern state whilst contributing nothing at all to it. And you suggest championing it! Why?
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Post by johnloony on Sept 14, 2016 16:23:37 GMT
People who self identify as either Gypsy or travellers number around 1 million in the UK, although only around 1/3 maintain their nomadic lifestyle. Statistics banded about suggest that only around 10% of the community vote, as part of the boundary review how about considering allocating a proportional number of seats to these communities. This could be away to engage the travelling community in the democratic process and a way of getting their voices heard. I don't for one moment believe that the total is anything likeas much as 1 million or 300,000 or whatever. If they want to be engaged in the democratic process, all they need to do is register and vote like anyone else. , the boundary commission seems to be ignoring this whole community, If they are, by their own choice, not registered to vote, then the Boundary Commission is, by law, obliged to ignore them. No "seems" about it. it's important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, If they are travelling all over the place all the time, it means they have marginalised themselves, and disengaged themselves from normal society.
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Sept 14, 2016 16:26:31 GMT
Are you saying that a travelling lifestyle isn't something to be championed for those who choose it. The British treatment of travelling communities is far better than their treatment by much of continental Europe, I would question whether communities have been successfully 'integrated' and whether or not 'integration or assimilation is something to be welcomed or not though. I would most certainly say that a travelling lifestyle is NOT something to be championed any more than I would wish to champion someone living in a tent on the Lizard (with consent of land owner) or in a tree house in the Forest of Bowland. I am happy to tolerate the activity which has no effect on me, but why champion it? A travelling lifestyle is 'out-of-time' for 21stC when we have busy roads and little or no common land left. It causes problems with effective health care, education of children, land use, collateral damage and disruption on the roads. Those choosing to do it have opted out of every form of duty or responsibility but expect sites to be provided at great expense and all the benefits of a modern state whilst contributing nothing at all to it. And you suggest championing it! Why? An itinerant lifestyle necessitates far fewer possessions, much less of a consumer culture, although the wonderfully eco-friendly horse drawn wagon has virtually disappeared, travellers caravans arnt built to accumulate huge numbers of possessions. One thing we need in this modern world, is the call of the open road, picking up temporary work as we go along.
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Post by johnloony on Sept 14, 2016 17:44:39 GMT
An itinerant lifestyle necessitates far fewer possessions, much less of a consumer culture, although the wonderfully eco-friendly horse drawn wagon has virtually disappeared, travellers caravans arnt built to accumulate huge numbers of possessions. One thing we need in this modern world, is the call of the open road, picking up temporary work as we go along. Very peculiar and imaginative use of the words "we" and "need".
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Post by No Offence Alan on Sept 14, 2016 17:54:20 GMT
I think it was disgraceful of John Prescott, when he was the relevant minister responsible for the 2004 Housing Act, not to oblige councils to provide travellers' sites.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 14, 2016 18:51:17 GMT
[ Well, you didn't get there first, is the point. *Kicks dirt over Moriori skeleton* If Ireland was, at its heart, a legal compromise between incoming GB colonisers and the travelling community who were respected as the indigenous population entering into free association with these said colonisers, I'd be right with you, but that is not the case. Replace "travelling community" in the previous sentence with "Irish Catholics", and you basically have Northern Ireland, which likewise has a bi-racial partnership enforced by constitutional law. That's fair. Serbian minority representation in Bosnia is fair. Specific representation for a population which comes here and does not respect the system enough to register to vote in the normal way is not. The traveller community have access to representation. You are conviently forgetting that the travellers are identical to the indigenous Irish community. They are not a distinct ethic group, which the Roma are. Even then I would be distantly uneasy about anyone else trying to seperate family members of mine into a seperate community from the proud brits which we are. Irish traveller culture is distinct from (though very similar to) mainstream Irish culture, in that it is based upon movement and marginalisation. Culture creates ethnicity. So yes, they are separate. I believe the 300,000 figure refers to the Gypsy community who still travel, it doesn't include those who have settled and doesn't included other travelling communities. As the boundary commission is about making sure that every vote is equal in terms of constituencies, (within fptp), its important to raise questions about representation for those who are marginalised from society, a travelling itinerant lifestyle doesn't make engagement with democracy easy, and while there are several travelling traditions all face different pressures from the settled population, guaranteed representation through the option of a separate electoral list could be an option, why do we consider geographical constituencies as the only option for a representative parliament. I cannot understand the concern with this. If they are bothered they will register and vote. If they are not bothered then why all this fuss? And what on earth do you mean by Gypsy and Traveller communities who don't travel. If they have taken settled residence they are no longer travellers by definition and no longer a separate community just part of the community where they live. Are we going to have lists of former airline staff/commercial travellers/military/merchant marine/diplomatic staff...........all of whom will have had special pressures, experiences, problems and threats during a difficult working life that was in many ways even more peripatetic and over longer distances and with more frequency? This is a daft thread about self-defining people who have a remedy in their hands and choose not to use it. They are not in any way an ethnic or religious group and even if they were I would give them no credence for that alone. No, because commercial travellers do not form a separate, notably insular culture with their own distinct traditions (and if you think that settled communities of Gypsies and Irish Travellers are welcomed into the villages where their settlements are, you're even more clueless than you sound). And they certainly don't face endemic discrimination in the planning system when they've stopped travelling. And no, this is not excused by the criminal activities of other members of their communities. I suspect you know you're talking complete shite here, but it'd be pleasing if you'd do so a little less on this issue. Are you saying that a travelling lifestyle isn't something to be championed for those who choose it. The British treatment of travelling communities is far better than their treatment by much of continental Europe, I would question whether communities have been successfully 'integrated' and whether or not 'integration or assimilation is something to be welcomed or not though. If people wish to travel that is their concern but most have been settled now for a few generations. Though those still travelling need to respect peoples property. Something which the roma usually did, hence why they get shirty when you call Irish travelles gypsies. I would also argue that considering most people are settled and leading ordinary lives suggest integration I'm sorry but my grandmothers extended family is no different to my scottish and English family. You seem to think we all go around in dredging poverty. All well and good, but the link with criminality isn't solely with itinerant travellers. Ask in any Cambridgeshire village with a large Gypsy/Irish Traveller presence and you'll hear the stories, not all of which are simple racism (though there is a depressingly large amount of that also.) Traveller culture exists at the same time as the host culture and hence is constructed to some degree in opposition to it. They are 'we', we are 'them' and this is quite a hard barrier to break down (not impossible, but not fast or easy.) And whilst you wouldn't steal from 'us', stealing from 'them' is quite a bit better - which is also much the same reason the host community almost always thinks the worst of the travellers. More broadly, migrant agricultural workers (which is basically the role Travellers have historically played in Britain - hence why there are so many round the edges of the Fens) are always going to cause trouble to the settled community. As I say, Traveller culture is not overly distinct from mainstream British culture - to a large extent, it simply reflects an older working class culture, which explains the popularity of things like bare-knuckling boxing (in my previous job, I came across a lot of ten year-old Gypsy kids, and they all idol-worshipped Tyson Fury) and the fact that the oldest versions of folk songs were usually recorded by talking to elderly Travellers. It's the lifestyle that makes them different, and where the conflict springs from.
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Crimson King
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Post by Crimson King on Sept 14, 2016 19:41:40 GMT
returning slightly to the original suggestion it seems that the alternatives are:
set up a new system of special consrituencies/MPs, requiring years of discussion, legislation, setting off arguments and resentments which would probably increase tension between various communities, creating precedents which other communities would likely want to take advantage of and much more
or
Travellers who want to vote spend a few minutes registering to do so
hmmmmm........
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