spqr
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,774
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Post by spqr on Jul 8, 2019 19:53:56 GMT
The problem is, in the long term, if all the sensible middle ground people decide that party politics isn't good for them, then we're left with extremists. No middle ground, no consensus, no debate, no discussion. That's not healthy. That's not democratic. That's the key point. The two sides don't debate. They just shout abuse at each other, rally their own tribes, and periodically persecute any dissenters or independent thinkers in their own ranks. There's no attempt to win people over to your point of view, or to understand why other people may feel differently - Merseymike is a case in point, telling people that he doesn't want them to vote for his party! There's also a terrifying level of certainty in one's own rightness, with no capacity for self-awareness or self-criticism. You're right, it is terrifying. It's a pity we see it so often inside the ranks of the so-called 'centre' then, isn't it? (And, just to illustrate that point further, the first name that popped into my head when I read the highlighted phrase above was 'Caron Lindsay').
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 19:58:13 GMT
Well, its the latter view which is being heard - 'vote for us to 'stop brexit', 'bollocks to Brexit' etc. Thats not about the public having a say - its 'vote for us and we will stop Brexit' It's surely both. Vote for us, and we will give you a confirmatory referendum, with which you can vote to stop Brexit. I'm sure you campaign on a platform of stopping the Tories, it doesn't mean you want to kick the government out without a democratic vote. A second referendum. There's nothing to confirm
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,503
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 8, 2019 20:50:22 GMT
But surely on Brexit, the LibDems are on the extreme ? They want to deny the outcome of the referendum and remain no matter what Whereas I voted remain but somewhat reluctantly and if there was a second referendum am unsure how I would vote No. They don't want to "deny the outcome of the referendum". They (at the moment at least) want the public to have the final say on any arrangement for leaving. There are some within the party who want to revoke Art.50 and remain without a further referendum. I strongly disagree with that view. If it was to become party policy I would find it very difficult to defend. Their messaging is a bit disassociatively dissonant at the moment, simulataneously saying "vote for us for a vote on how we leave the EU" and "vote for use to prevent leaving". I can put myself in the mind of people in the 2000s/2010s receiving "that" leaflet thinking "I'm voting LibDem, because they've promised that at long last we can vote to leave the EU". And according to the website, LibDem policy currently *isn't* a vote on how to leave, it's for another vote on whether to leave.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 8, 2019 21:08:31 GMT
No. They don't want to "deny the outcome of the referendum". They (at the moment at least) want the public to have the final say on any arrangement for leaving. There are some within the party who want to revoke Art.50 and remain without a further referendum. I strongly disagree with that view. If it was to become party policy I would find it very difficult to defend. Their messaging is a bit disassociatively dissonant at the moment, simulataneously saying "vote for us for a vote on how we leave the EU" and "vote for use to prevent leaving". I can put myself in the mind of people in the 2000s/2010s receiving "that" leaflet thinking "I'm voting LibDem, because they've promised that at long last we can vote to leave the EU". And according to the website, LibDem policy currently *isn't* a vote on how to leave, it's for another vote on whether to leave. Good point. My wording was sloppy. Should have read "the public to have a final say on any arrangement for leaving, including the option of remaining".
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jul 8, 2019 21:14:07 GMT
It's surely both. Vote for us, and we will give you a confirmatory referendum, with which you can vote to stop Brexit. I'm sure you campaign on a platform of stopping the Tories, it doesn't mean you want to kick the government out without a democratic vote. A second referendum. There's nothing to confirm To confirm the deal that is eventually struck and/or whether the country wants to leave with No Deal. People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available.
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 21:55:13 GMT
A second referendum. There's nothing to confirm To confirm the deal that is eventually struck and/or whether the country wants to leave with No Deal. People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available. There isn't going to be a deal struck which parliament actually agree to, by the look of it! Lets just be honest - you want a re-run of the referendum and argue for it on the basis that people may have changed their mind. I'm yet to be convinced but if my party eventually agree to it, then I won't protest. However I doubt it will ever happen - certainly not this side of an election and I can't see the Tories wanting one of them right now. Given the utter failure of Tory rebels to...rebel, and the stuff about 'blocking no deal' without proposing something else instead - its not looking very likely
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,809
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Post by jamie on Jul 9, 2019 12:36:27 GMT
People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available. This is the best argument for a confirmatory referendum Ive ever heard.
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edgbaston
Labour
Posts: 3,565
Member is Online
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Post by edgbaston on Jul 9, 2019 12:40:20 GMT
People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available. This is the best argument for a confirmatory referendum Ive ever heard. Is it really though?
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Jack
Reform Party
Posts: 8,079
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Post by Jack on Jul 9, 2019 13:14:09 GMT
People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available. This is the best argument for a confirmatory referendum Ive ever heard. It's a fairly low bar.
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spqr
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,774
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Post by spqr on Jul 9, 2019 16:22:08 GMT
People are entitled to change their minds about leaving if they don't like the mechanism that is chosen to leave. If someone asked me if I wanted pizza for dinner, and I said yes, and then they said there's only meat feast pizza so I'd have to have that, I'd be well entitled to tell them that I'd changed my mind about having pizza, especially if I was promised there'd be a vegetarian option available. This is the best argument for a confirmatory referendum Ive ever heard. The rest of them must have been dire.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,809
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Post by jamie on Jul 9, 2019 17:27:05 GMT
I perhaps wasn’t being quite literal, but it’s a good metaphor imo.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jul 9, 2019 19:17:57 GMT
As you can see, this pizza restaurant also serves cheese strawmen.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,011
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Post by peterl on Jul 9, 2019 19:40:34 GMT
£350 million a week buys a lot of pizza!
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jul 9, 2019 20:04:01 GMT
Not so much when you take the plummeting pound, mozzarella tariffs etc into account.
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 9, 2019 20:22:29 GMT
The plummeting pound will greatly assist the UK pizza export market How about the UK popcoron export market?
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Dan
Animal Welfare Party
Believes we need more localism in our politics
Posts: 808
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Post by Dan on Jul 11, 2019 15:41:07 GMT
Do we sell more pizza to them, or do they sell more pizza to us?
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jul 11, 2019 17:10:54 GMT
The plummeting pound will greatly assist the UK pizza export market Yes, my local Pizza Hut and Dominos in Wallasey are sending hundreds of pizzas to the continent every night.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Jul 11, 2019 21:39:27 GMT
Actually, there is a large pizza export market- a huge amount of frozen dough is being sent to Asia from a site near Witney. There's also a company near Sunderland selling pizza cheese (specifically, cow mozzarella) to Italy.
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Toylyyev
Mebyon Kernow
CJ Fox avatar
Posts: 1,067
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Post by Toylyyev on Jul 11, 2019 22:43:16 GMT
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Post by No Offence Alan on Aug 28, 2019 20:08:50 GMT
The yellow room already know, but I thought I would share here that I let my LD membership lapse a couple of months ago. Once the UK has either left the EU, or A50 has been revoked, I shall re-join. So hopefully on 1st November. I have told my local party to treat me as a volunteer leafletter in the meantime.
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