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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 20, 2020 16:20:27 GMT
Cameron already *had* power - he was Prime Minister remember, as Gordon Brown had resigned before the end of negotiations and the Queen had appointed him. I'm reasonably sure it has since been made public that the Tories weren't willing to accept full PR, though I cant remember where that was. They were not going to go further than AV. The negotiations were pretty far advanced before Brown threw in the towel - my recollection is Hague made a public offer of an AV referendum the day before. The lack of push seems to have been because so much work had been done to assemble an elite coalition behind AV, whether with or without a referendum, before May 2010 and so this offer was in practice simply bidding at the going rate. Had the going rate been an STV referendum we'd probably have conceded that.
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 20, 2020 16:20:48 GMT
I was one of those who is in favour of electoral reform but voted against AV because I think it's worse than FPTP and I oppose preference voting Unfortunately that was an extreme minority view and there was no sizeable "No to AV, Yes to PR" campaign that could credibly take responsibility for the win to take the cause forward. As often said, nobody seriously believe It's David Owen Wot Won It (except, maybe, David Owen). I would agree Those voting in favour thought it would be a springboard to full PR. I thought it would be a disaster and we would have gone back to FPTP.
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 20, 2020 16:21:04 GMT
But the LibDems assumed far too much in the way of the Tories being 'good sports' As opposed to Lib Dem grass roots campaigners?!
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Post by Strontium Dog on Feb 20, 2020 17:33:23 GMT
Oh good, the nasty Lib Dems canard again, I haven't seen that for at least 10 minutes.
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 20, 2020 20:18:55 GMT
Now I wonder why it comes up so much.
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Feb 20, 2020 20:44:07 GMT
Still quoting that ALDC pamphlet from 20 years ago? lol. James should know better there.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 21, 2020 1:33:32 GMT
Still quoting that ALDC pamphlet from 20 years ago? lol. James should know better there. I find people publicly effectively briefing against their own party baffling & self-destructive...
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iang
Lib Dem
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Post by iang on Feb 21, 2020 8:35:53 GMT
This seems to me to have become an issue of people simply objecting to bar charts - not inaccurate or misleading ones, just bar charts - in other words, saying Lib Dems shouldn't campaign. In Edgbaston, we used bar charts of the Euro election result, as we did in another constituency I went to (and in both cases it clearly said, and not just in tiny font, that it was the Euro election result and made the point that it was the most recent election). This didn't stop all sorts of criticism / complaint from Labour in particular. Apparently, you should only be allowed to use bar charts showing the last general election result (which was of course more favourable to Labour). Oh, and I've just had a nice newspaper through the door - you know, one of those free newspapers we all get which are nothing to do with politics and don't have a headline saying from a political party. Funny how Andy Street's on every page...
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 21, 2020 9:22:44 GMT
I was one of those who is in favour of electoral reform but voted against AV because I think it's worse than FPTP and I oppose preference voting I think the LibDems should have fought a much harder bargain. If something on the lines of the Scottish system had been offered Labour would have found that harder to oppose without appearing hypocritical and if Clegg had insisted on no official party position in the referendum that would have helped. But I still think there are many in the LibDems who only want STV. Whereas a lot of Labour electoral reformers favour AMS type systems. They saw AV as a stepping stone to STV as it's a preference system
And I was one generally opposed to all forms of voting reform, but at the time radically out of step with the Conservative Party and Comeroonism, and a UKIP ultra-Leaver; so, I voted in favour A. , Now I am implacably opposed to anything at all other than FPTP for all elections and want us to revert to it at every level.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Feb 21, 2020 10:25:40 GMT
Still quoting that ALDC pamphlet from 20 years ago? lol. James should know better there. I find people publicly effectively briefing against their own party baffling & self-destructive... Welcome to our world.....
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 21, 2020 11:54:41 GMT
This seems to me to have become an issue of people simply objecting to bar charts - not inaccurate or misleading ones, just bar charts - in other words, saying Lib Dems shouldn't campaign. In Edgbaston, we used bar charts of the Euro election result, as we did in another constituency I went to (and in both cases it clearly said, and not just in tiny font, that it was the Euro election result and made the point that it was the most recent election). This didn't stop all sorts of criticism / complaint from Labour in particular. Apparently, you should only be allowed to use bar charts showing the last general election result (which was of course more favourable to Labour). Unfortunately for your lot there have been so many wild distortions (out of scale, utterly inappropriate selection of figures, even alleged just making them up claimed in the Twitter thread above) that for many Lib Dem bar charts just aren't trusted any more. As for the choice of figures, we're endlessly told that different elections are for different things and people vote differently - so why are the EU Parliament results or some parish council by-election or even the number of councillors after defections an indicator of how a Westminster election will go? And if a particular set is "more indicative" then why isn't it used across the board? Instead the bar chart on offer was just anything that showed the Lib Dems in the best position. (And yes I know other parties do similar but it is a hallmark of Lib Dem campaigns and something that they are increasingly being called out on.)
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Feb 21, 2020 12:06:44 GMT
If there’s been another election since the GE it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that result.
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 21, 2020 12:18:36 GMT
What about the ones based on polls that actually ask:
"Imagine that the result in your constituency was expected to be very close between the Conservative and the Liberal Democrat candidate, and none of the other parties were competitive. In this scenario, which party would you vote for?"
or even:
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Post by bjornhattan on Feb 21, 2020 12:32:04 GMT
This seems to me to have become an issue of people simply objecting to bar charts - not inaccurate or misleading ones, just bar charts - in other words, saying Lib Dems shouldn't campaign. In Edgbaston, we used bar charts of the Euro election result, as we did in another constituency I went to (and in both cases it clearly said, and not just in tiny font, that it was the Euro election result and made the point that it was the most recent election). This didn't stop all sorts of criticism / complaint from Labour in particular. Apparently, you should only be allowed to use bar charts showing the last general election result (which was of course more favourable to Labour). Unfortunately for your lot there have been so many wild distortions (out of scale, utterly inappropriate selection of figures, even alleged just making them up claimed in the Twitter thread above) that for many Lib Dem bar charts just aren't trusted any more. As for the choice of figures, we're endlessly told that different elections are for different things and people vote differently - so why are the EU Parliament results or some parish council by-election or even the number of councillors after defections an indicator of how a Westminster election will go? And if a particular set is "more indicative" then why isn't it used across the board? Instead the bar chart on offer was just anything that showed the Lib Dems in the best position. (And yes I know other parties do similar but it is a hallmark of Lib Dem campaigns and something that they are increasingly being called out on.) I got my very own bad Lib Dem bar chart this very morning, and it truly is a howler. The leaflet was heavily targeted at Saltwell ward, before claiming that "Remember: It's the Lib Dems or Labour here". This was accompanied by a typical Lib Dem bar chart (they were just behind Labour and massively ahead of the Conservatives with a "can't win here" arrow), and text talking about the fact only they have seats on Gateshead Council. Only one problem - last time out the results were: Lab 51%, Con 19%, Green 17%, Lib Dem 13%. Not only did they not come second, they actually finished last! To make matters worse, this is the sort of seat where a degree of tactical voting could probably dislodge Labour, since they don't exactly have a towering share of the vote. But this is the sort of place the Lib Dems should be considering standing down for the Greens (in return for their standing down in genuine marginals), not trying to pinch tactical votes which might take them up to third at best.
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iang
Lib Dem
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Post by iang on Feb 21, 2020 13:17:09 GMT
This seems to me to have become an issue of people simply objecting to bar charts - not inaccurate or misleading ones, just bar charts - in other words, saying Lib Dems shouldn't campaign. In Edgbaston, we used bar charts of the Euro election result, as we did in another constituency I went to (and in both cases it clearly said, and not just in tiny font, that it was the Euro election result and made the point that it was the most recent election). This didn't stop all sorts of criticism / complaint from Labour in particular. Apparently, you should only be allowed to use bar charts showing the last general election result (which was of course more favourable to Labour). Unfortunately for your lot there have been so many wild distortions (out of scale, utterly inappropriate selection of figures, even alleged just making them up claimed in the Twitter thread above) that for many Lib Dem bar charts just aren't trusted any more. As for the choice of figures, we're endlessly told that different elections are for different things and people vote differently - so why are the EU Parliament results or some parish council by-election or even the number of councillors after defections an indicator of how a Westminster election will go? And if a particular set is "more indicative" then why isn't it used across the board? Instead the bar chart on offer was just anything that showed the Lib Dems in the best position. (And yes I know other parties do similar but it is a hallmark of Lib Dem campaigns and something that they are increasingly being called out on.) The second paragraph is a perfectly reasonable point , and of course, yes, figures are chosen to show us in the best possible position - we would hardly have a bar chart proclaiming that we are a distant last. But the claim that the ONLY set of figures that should be allowed are the last set of General Election figures, as if nothing has occurred since, seems to be equally specious, and that was the line I saw being vigorously peddled by some (tbf, largely Labour & SNP) activists
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Post by Strontium Dog on Feb 21, 2020 13:39:04 GMT
Oh yes, I particularly recall some very indignant Labour tweets over Lib Dem claims that Wimbledon was a race between us and the Tories, and that we were a bunch of liars because in 2017 we were a distant third place, even though the constituency polls were telling a different (ie accurate) story.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Feb 21, 2020 16:24:17 GMT
100% accurate - winning here!
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 21, 2020 19:35:56 GMT
That image isn't displaying.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Feb 21, 2020 19:41:39 GMT
That image isn't displaying. Here’s the raw numbers:
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 21, 2020 19:46:48 GMT
Ah - it was that ****ing Facebook Container extension.
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