Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
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Post by Chris from Brum on Feb 19, 2020 9:41:04 GMT
I have a feeling David Lloyd George might have suffered in the era of #metoo. Serial philanderers can be found in all parties. DL-G somehow managed to achieve infamy for it.
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Post by yellowperil on Feb 19, 2020 9:45:03 GMT
I have a feeling David Lloyd George might have suffered in the era of #metoo. Boris likes to think he's the new Churchill which is obviously nonsense but there are times when I wonder if he isn't the new Lloyd George.
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
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Post by mboy on Feb 19, 2020 9:54:30 GMT
And it was abundantly clear in 2012 that their position on changing the Lords was driven by this - having failing to secure a permanent balance of power in the lower house they were trying to get one in the upper house. So why didn't the Liberals introduce it when they were in government? (And given your phrasing you clearly don't mean the later stages of the war, by which time the party was split and no longer dominant, or the attempt to introduce SV by another name, later amended to AV during passage, in 1931.) Or did it only become a Liberal thing from the mid 1920s onwards? Position on changing the Lord's, in 2012? We've been wanting an elected upper house for decades. 1910s for PR. As the most constitutionally and institutionally revolutionary government in this country's history, the 1906- Liberal government was rudely interrupted by WWI before some of its most important work was completed. To the UKs enormous detriment. This is true, but we probably ought to acknowledge that both PR and votes for women were partly held up by reactionary elements in the Liberal Party as well.
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 19, 2020 10:03:19 GMT
All this was a long time ago.....the LibDems and it's Liberal origin party have been in favour of electoral reform for at least the past century.
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 19, 2020 12:13:33 GMT
Position on changing the Lord's, in 2012? We've been wanting an elected upper house for decades. Yes but you were stepping up the urgency. In 2012 it did feel like a party that had lost its battle for a permanent balance of power in the lower house was now straining all its might to get it in the upper house, no matter how rubbish the Clegg Proposals were. By which time your dominance had slipped. I don't have the figures to hand (though I'm sure someone here does) but ISTR by 1912 the Liberals were no longer the largest party in the Commons and never recovered. All this was a long time ago.....the LibDems and it's Liberal origin party have been in favour of electoral reform for at least the past century. And the timing of their conversion is very telling.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 19, 2020 12:28:59 GMT
Position on changing the Lord's, in 2012? We've been wanting an elected upper house for decades. 1910s for PR. As the most constitutionally and institutionally revolutionary government in this country's history, the 1906- Liberal government was rudely interrupted by WWI before some of its most important work was completed. To the UKs enormous detriment. This is true, but we probably ought to acknowledge that both PR and votes for women were partly held up by reactionary elements in the Liberal Party as well. Indeed, the most important changes are never without even internal opposition, especially back in those times when the dominant parties were often even broader coalitions than we're used to even now.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 19, 2020 12:31:58 GMT
Yes the Liberal party of a hundred years ago was a much broader church than todays Lib Dems. It used to include liberals for example
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Post by hallamshire on Feb 19, 2020 13:36:07 GMT
Ok so use STV and you don't nominate a full slate. Few seats still change hands, and the fake argument that voters get to choose between candidates from the same party is debunked as well. STV is the most abominable and farcical electoral system by a country mile. It might be if SV didn't exist...
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 19, 2020 14:42:36 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV?
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Feb 19, 2020 15:14:00 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV? Well, I occasionally use Luncheon Vouchers sometimes and Liverpool Victoria have always been helpful, so on balance I'm in favour...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 15:20:26 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV? Well, I occasionally use Luncheon Vouchers sometimes and Liverpool Victoria have always been helpful, so on balance I'm in favour... But do you watch Somali National Television? I'm not a big fan myself.
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Post by hallamshire on Feb 19, 2020 15:33:20 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV? You've got me there!
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,181
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Post by Chris from Brum on Feb 19, 2020 15:43:10 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV? I tend to agree with Mrs Patrick Campbell in not caring very much, "so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses!"
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Feb 19, 2020 15:45:34 GMT
How do you feel about SNTV and LV? I tend to agree with Mrs Patrick Campbell in not caring very much, "so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses!" Any relation to Ronnie Campbell- he also had a thing for horses.
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Post by tonygreaves on Feb 19, 2020 15:46:22 GMT
PR was irrelevant in the era of two-party politics.
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Post by tiberius on Feb 19, 2020 16:11:39 GMT
What is the consensus view of the threadgoers on SNTV?
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,181
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Post by Chris from Brum on Feb 19, 2020 16:45:46 GMT
What is the consensus view of the threadgoers on SNTV? Used to enjoy it, but it wasn't the same after Ant & Dec left.
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Post by yellowperil on Feb 19, 2020 16:50:17 GMT
What is the consensus view of the threadgoers on SNTV? Not too sure what the consensus would be, and that's assuming we are indeed talking about the single non-transferable vote and nothing to do with the national television of Somalia, which I suspect not many of us are qualified to give an authorative opinion. Personally I would say that SNTV retains all the disadvantages of the single transferable vote but with none of its advantages, and I cannot see why anyone would prefer it - the history of its use in practice tends to confirm that, though I believe some Japanese elections still use it?
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Post by bjornhattan on Feb 19, 2020 16:53:06 GMT
The objectively best electoral system (which combines proportional representation if the chamber is large enough with local MPs and eliminates the need for tactical voting) is incredibly illogical. It's representative sortition. You pick a random ballot paper, and that determines the winning MP.
Mathematically, if Party A wins 40% of the vote and Party B wins 30% of the vote, they should win those seat shares (plus or minus a fairly small random factor). It is important that constituencies are close to equal size under this system, since voter importance is inversely proportional to constituency electorate, so the latter needs to be equalised to make all voters equal.
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Post by tiberius on Feb 19, 2020 16:53:33 GMT
What is the consensus view of the threadgoers on SNTV? Not too sure what the consensus would be, and that's assuming we are indeed talking about the single non-transferable vote and nothing to do with the national television of Somalia, which I suspect not many of us are qualified to give an authorative opinion. Personally I would say that SNTV retains all the disadvantages of the single transferable vote but with none of its advantages, and I cannot see why anyone would prefer it - the history of its use in practice tends to confirm that, though I believe some Japanese elections still use it? Japan used it for lower house elections from 1947 to 1993, and preferectural assembly elections still use it exclusively. Its also in use in Taiwan in some capacities, such as highland aborginal seats in the Legislative Yuan. It should be noted that when Japan used it it was combined with malapportionment to give more solidly Jiyuminshito rural areas overrepresentation, so if anything that electoral system wasn't the sole reason the LDP was so dominant, it just contributed fairly heavily. Japan has always has malapportioned Diet districts and this holds true regardless of the electoral system they used.
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