middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 13:52:09 GMT
Post by middyman on Jul 13, 2019 13:52:09 GMT
I do not dissent from the tenor of your post at all. Matters, unfortunately, have not improved since. The majority either disbelieved “Project Fear” or considered that there were issues which were more important than economics. I think that the latter is more likely to be the case. I then am angered by politicians who say that people did not vote to become poorer; actually they voted fully aware that that was a risk. I agree with the thrust of this exchange, but it also illustrates why Vibe 's call for unity and optimism is way too late. The vote wasn't decided on whether or not the outcome would make us better off, but on more fundamental issues on which people are essentially (sic) divided because they go to fundamental values. Ergo the resulting project is, like Thatcherism, inherently divisive - it may succeed or fail, but it won't and can't unite the country; the best that can happen is that the conflict be eventually forgotten. I am a bit more optimistic. The divide in the campaign, and still is in the country, whether issues such as sovereignty and full independence trump economic benefits or the other way round. There will be nibbling round the edges as to whether there really is full independence and whether the WA delivers it on the one hand and the extent, illusory or otherwise of the economic benefits. Once we are actually out and enough time has passed for matters to settle down and people to start to move on, then there will be nothing left to fight over on this issue.
|
|
cogload
Lib Dem
I jumped in the river and what did I see...
Posts: 8,208
Member is Online
|
Post by cogload on Jul 13, 2019 14:19:00 GMT
Once we are out it will all begin again. This issue will dominate UK politics (whatever is left of the UK anyway) for the next 30 years. I am bemused as to why people can't see this.
It will play a huge role at the next HR elections, and will be a factor in any 2nd Indy referendum. If the vote for the latter is for Scotland to leave the UK union then there will be another long bout of introspective soul searching whilst the political classes in England try and painfully readjust to being 3rd power status. Perhaps Joanna Cherry called this correctly, England and Scotland will be in the EU in 10years, or in the accession process but as independent states.
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 13, 2019 16:46:45 GMT
Once we are out it will all begin again. This issue will dominate UK politics (whatever is left of the UK anyway) for the next 30 years. I am bemused as to why people can't see this.
It will play a huge role at the next HR elections, and will be a factor in any 2nd Indy referendum. If the vote for the latter is for Scotland to leave the UK union then there will be another long bout of introspective soul searching whilst the political classes in England try and painfully readjust to being 3rd power status. Perhaps Joanna Cherry called this correctly, England and Scotland will be in the EU in 10years, or in the accession process but as independent states. Wishful thinking. Odd really, some people have been craving this for decades but now suggest that it might be a bit unpleasant but once over everybody will get over it and move on. If that were true they'd have been no point in doing it; it has to lead to fundamental change, else it's pointless; and if it does, it can't leave "nothing to fight over". If it really is a damp squib, that's a problem in itself after all this grief.
|
|
Vibe
Non-Aligned
Posts: 931
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 17:37:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Vibe on Jul 13, 2019 17:37:40 GMT
Once we are out it will all begin again. This issue will dominate UK politics (whatever is left of the UK anyway) for the next 30 years. I am bemused as to why people can't see this.
It will play a huge role at the next HR elections, and will be a factor in any 2nd Indy referendum. If the vote for the latter is for Scotland to leave the UK union then there will be another long bout of introspective soul searching whilst the political classes in England try and painfully readjust to being 3rd power status. Perhaps Joanna Cherry called this correctly, England and Scotland will be in the EU in 10years, or in the accession process but as independent states. Wishful thinking. Odd really, some people have been craving this for decades but now suggest that it might be a bit unpleasant but once over everybody will get over it and move on. If that were true they'd have been no point in doing it; it has to lead to fundamental change, else it's pointless; and if it does, it can't leave "nothing to fight over". If it really is a damp squib, that's a problem in itself after all this grief. I don't think anyone has said this will go away anytime soon. That's why I believe the margin to leave should have been higher than 1 vote above 50%.
|
|
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 18:46:10 GMT
Post by Merseymike on Jul 13, 2019 18:46:10 GMT
Unity and positivism - reminds me far too much of Blair, frankly, and I don't think that the overall mindset is that naive and trusting any more.
|
|
Vibe
Non-Aligned
Posts: 931
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 22:32:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by Vibe on Jul 13, 2019 22:32:08 GMT
Unity and positivism - reminds me far too much of Blair, frankly, and I don't think that the overall mindset is that naive and trusting any more. Corbyn must be disunity, racism and negativity then 😄
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Jul 13, 2019 22:37:45 GMT
If you seriously think that the country is united, or that there are any politicians who could provide genuine unity given the profound disagreements which exist, then I think you are being naive. Yes, I'm pretty negative about the way things are at the moment, and all that ra-ra lets pull together and be positive guff is pretty risible, all told
|
|
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 22:41:13 GMT
Vibe likes this
Post by Andrew_S on Jul 13, 2019 22:41:13 GMT
If you seriously think that the country is united, or that there are any politicians who could provide genuine unity given the profound disagreements which exist, then I think you are being naive. Yes, I'm pretty negative about the way things are at the moment, and all that ra-ra lets pull together and be positive guff is pretty risible, all told Of course the country's always been divided politically. That's why no party has polled 50% since 1935. But we've always agreed to be governed by whichever party wins a general election even if we detest what they stand for, because the alternative is chaos and no-one wants that.
|
|
Vibe
Non-Aligned
Posts: 931
|
BMG
Jul 13, 2019 22:49:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by Vibe on Jul 13, 2019 22:49:17 GMT
False negativity isn't helpful! Being positive actually works. Being negative will lead to failure. You are clearly a negative person and a failure. I can't believe the level of personal abuse on this site. Are you trying to encourage me to kill myself or something? Thankfully, I don't have a suicidal tendency. But you could have said that to someone who does. You should think before typing stuff like that. Hardly personal abuse, just an observation. Negativity breeds negativity and negative outcomes, that's all. If you are sensitive, this site isn't the best site for you. My comment was very mild compared to some I've seen on here. Whatever happens boom/recession, leave/Remain, Tory/Lab/LD, the vast majority of normal people want a bit of unity and issues like knife crime, the NHS, policing, rising inequality, pollution etc addressed. I do apologise if I upset you
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Jul 13, 2019 23:03:29 GMT
If you seriously think that the country is united, or that there are any politicians who could provide genuine unity given the profound disagreements which exist, then I think you are being naive. Yes, I'm pretty negative about the way things are at the moment, and all that ra-ra lets pull together and be positive guff is pretty risible, all told Of course the country's always been divided politically. That's why no party has polled 50% since 1935. But we've always agreed to be governed by whichever party wins a general election even if we detest what they stand for, because the alternative is chaos and no-one wants that. I think the divides are particularly deep at the moment - but its more the attitude of Johnson I find ludicrous. I can see, having been there at the time, why the Blair version of naive positivity worked, but its just not going to do so now.
|
|
|
BMG
Jul 14, 2019 0:34:27 GMT
spqr likes this
Post by finsobruce on Jul 14, 2019 0:34:27 GMT
"Project Fear" actually = experts doing forecasts to the best of their generally very high ability. False optimism does nobody any good, not even the false optimists. False negativity isn't helpful! Being positive actually works. Being negative will lead to failure. You are clearly a negative person and a failure. I note that you have apologised, but this sort of gratuitous comment does nobody any good.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,655
Member is Online
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 8:59:58 GMT
Post by The Bishop on Aug 18, 2019 8:59:58 GMT
A survey from this outfit apparently claims that only 34% want a no deal Brexit, lower than many recent polls.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 15:37:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2019 15:37:26 GMT
|
|
jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,864
Member is Online
|
Post by jamie on Aug 18, 2019 15:39:58 GMT
Release the CUK figure but not the Greens? Ok...
|
|
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 19:12:16 GMT
Post by tonygreaves on Aug 18, 2019 19:12:16 GMT
12% unaccounted for.
|
|
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 20:03:57 GMT
Post by justin124 on Aug 18, 2019 20:03:57 GMT
t would be good to know the fieldwork dates for this poll. As it stands, it represents a swing of 1.75% to Con from Lab compared with 2017 and would result in 19 Tory gains from Labour on basis of UNS. However, there would also be 14 LibDem gains from the Tories as a result of a 12% swing from Con to LibDem. No information re-SNP . Labour losses likely to be lower due to first term incumbency boosts in 13 of the 19 seats affected
|
|
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 20:30:58 GMT
Post by iainbhx on Aug 18, 2019 20:30:58 GMT
t would be good to know the fieldwork dates for this poll. As it stands, it represents a swing of 1.75% to Con from Lab compared with 2017 and would result in 19 Tory gains from Labour on basis of UNS. However, there would also be 14 LibDem gains from the Tories as a result of a 12% swing from Con to LibDem. No information re-SNP . Labour losses likely to be lower due to first term incumbency boosts in 13 of the 19 seats affected Field work is 6-9 Aug.
|
|
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 20:32:46 GMT
jamie likes this
Post by iainbhx on Aug 18, 2019 20:32:46 GMT
Release the CUK figure but not the Greens? Ok... Nope, Stats for Lefties being economical with the actualité again. Full tables aren't out yet and from the headlines neither the greens or CUK are mentioned just a 12% others.
|
|
greenhert
Green
Posts: 7,233
Member is Online
|
BMG
Aug 18, 2019 21:24:44 GMT
Post by greenhert on Aug 18, 2019 21:24:44 GMT
Furthermore, I believe the Greens will win 2 of the 24 "other" seats noted in the poll (18 are Northern Irish seats and the remaining 4 will be for Plaid Cymru).
|
|
carolus
Lib Dem
Posts: 4,742
Member is Online
|
BMG
Aug 19, 2019 8:38:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by carolus on Aug 19, 2019 8:38:50 GMT
Release the CUK figure but not the Greens? Ok... Nope, Stats for Lefties being economical with the actualité again. Full tables aren't out yet and from the headlines neither the greens or CUK are mentioned just a 12% others. ChUK are mentioned at 0 in the original independent article here
|
|