Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 26, 2015 23:15:53 GMT
The problem is, people don't seem to see what Liberal Democrats have done well over the past 5 years. It's not always easy to keep to your promises when you are in government with a party which doesn't share the same views as your own. VOTE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT! It think it was the Independent last week that published a survey saying the Lib Dems have delivered more of their manifesto than all but two governments in my lifetime. But we've been woeful about telling people about it. You have indeed. Too many of your colleagues preferred the comfort of opposition to the responsibility of government. Thousands fled the field of battle claiming that they had been betrayed by their leadership when in reality they simply didn't have the courage to carry on the fight in difficult circumstances. Others who remained have gone out of their way to escape the consequences of going into government. They have been cowards and pretended they had no choice or they have said that they didn't really want to do it. The electorate have judged them as the self serving weasels that they are and punished them accordingly. As a party too many of you have made the tragic mistake of trying to win back the votes of those who hate you for going into government with the Tories when you should have championed what you have achieved in government. You had a compelling story to tell that could have appealed to many, if only you had had the courage to tell it. I have said this before but I will say it again, the attitude of the Yardley Lib Dems over the last 4 years (until 2011 they were complacent) should have been replicated up and down the country. John Hemming may or may not survive as an MP but he will certain achieve a far better swing than the vast majority of his colleagues.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Apr 26, 2015 23:22:42 GMT
I'm not sure that any of the Tory manifesto - much of which I disagreed with - can be described as 'pure evil'. The so-called 'bedroom tax', for example has been done with a fair aim - that anyone living in a state owned property should live in one that is suitably sized. It has been implemented poorly, but even so I don't think that the effects can be described as 'evil'. The bedroom tax IS evil. It also shows a total failure to understand working class lifestyles. Firstly, there is an assumption that a family can move to a smaller property every time an older child moves out. In most cases, they can't - and it's wrong to penalise them for it. Secondly, it fails to understand the role of extended family in working class communities for childcare and other kinds of support. Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails. It would particularly hit the employment opportunities of working mothers. Thirdly, the bedroom tax simply fails to recognise the degree to which many working class families who have lived in a house for many years and raised their families there consider it to be their home. I understand all of this because I was brought up on a council estate where both sides of my family had lived since it was built in the early 1930's. I know the disruptive effect that constant moves would have caused my family - socially, emotionally and economically. To be fair, they never claimed housing benefits, but moving away would have meant my mother would have been unable to leave me with relatives to go out to work - and that would have led to my family having to claim housing benefits. The bedroom tax is a product of the thinking of middle class and upper class politicians who have no idea of how working class people think or perceive the world. No wonder all three main parties are being shunned by the working class! I'm not sure you can say that the policy is born from ignorance then call it evil. Surely for something to be evil it requires intent? While accepting most of what you say, I am unsympathetic to the argument that many people 'consider it their home'. Maybe I am being heartless, but IMO the state should be providing houses to people who really need them, not letting families who don't really need them stay there. I don't really give a toss if you have formed an emotional attachment to your council house.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 26, 2015 23:25:04 GMT
I'm not sure that any of the Tory manifesto - much of which I disagreed with - can be described as 'pure evil'. The so-called 'bedroom tax', for example has been done with a fair aim - that anyone living in a state owned property should live in one that is suitably sized. It has been implemented poorly, but even so I don't think that the effects can be described as 'evil'. The bedroom tax IS evil. It also shows a total failure to understand working class lifestyles. Firstly, there is an assumption that a family can move to a smaller property every time an older child moves out. In most cases, they can't - and it's wrong to penalise them for it. Secondly, it fails to understand the role of extended family in working class communities for childcare and other kinds of support. Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails. It would particularly hit the employment opportunities of working mothers. Thirdly, the bedroom tax simply fails to recognise the degree to which many working class families who have lived in a house for many years and raised their families there consider it to be their home. I understand all of this because I was brought up on a council estate where both sides of my family had lived since it was built in the early 1930's. I know the disruptive effect that constant moves would have caused my family - socially, emotionally and economically. To be fair, they never claimed housing benefits, but moving away would have meant my mother would have been unable to leave me with relatives to go out to work - and that would have led to my family having to claim housing benefits. The bedroom tax is a product of the thinking of middle class and upper class politicians who have no idea of how working class people think or perceive the world. No wonder all three main parties are being shunned by the working class! I would suggest that your post makes a case that the "bedroom tax" is misguided or flawed but not evil. For a policy to be evil I would suggest that there would need to be an intent to cause harm and I don't think anyone rational thinks that this policy was designed to cause harm.
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Sharon
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 2,526
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Post by Sharon on Apr 26, 2015 23:34:04 GMT
The bedroom tax IS evil. It also shows a total failure to understand working class lifestyles. Firstly, there is an assumption that a family can move to a smaller property every time an older child moves out. In most cases, they can't - and it's wrong to penalise them for it. Secondly, it fails to understand the role of extended family in working class communities for childcare and other kinds of support. Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails. It would particularly hit the employment opportunities of working mothers. Thirdly, the bedroom tax simply fails to recognise the degree to which many working class families who have lived in a house for many years and raised their families there consider it to be their home. I understand all of this because I was brought up on a council estate where both sides of my family had lived since it was built in the early 1930's. I know the disruptive effect that constant moves would have caused my family - socially, emotionally and economically. To be fair, they never claimed housing benefits, but moving away would have meant my mother would have been unable to leave me with relatives to go out to work - and that would have led to my family having to claim housing benefits. The bedroom tax is a product of the thinking of middle class and upper class politicians who have no idea of how working class people think or perceive the world. No wonder all three main parties are being shunned by the working class! I'm not sure you can say that the policy is born from ignorance then call it evil. Surely for something to be evil it requires intent? While accepting most of what you say, I am unsympathetic to the argument that many people 'consider it their home'. Maybe I am being heartless, but IMO the state should be providing houses to people who really need them, not letting families who don't really need them stay there. I don't really give a toss if you have formed an emotional attachment to your council house.If that's the case, would you care to explain why over 60 year olds are exempt from the "bedroom tax"? Also, are you aware that there is a shortage of 1 and 2 bedroom properties, for people to downsize to? Oh, and while I'm here, I'll give you a scenario - Mum and Dad have split up - daughter lives with Mum during the week, but now Dad can't afford to pay the bedroom tax, so has to downsize to a 1 bed flat - therefore daughter cannot stay with Dad - what happens to her relationship with her Dad?
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Post by carlton43 on Apr 26, 2015 23:36:41 GMT
It think it was the Independent last week that published a survey saying the Lib Dems have delivered more of their manifesto than all but two governments in my lifetime. But we've been woeful about telling people about it. With respect it's not simply a question of how much of the LibDem manifesto has been implemented, it's also a matter of how much human wickedness and misery they share responsibility for by facilitating implementation of the Tory manifesto - parts of which were pure evil. Probably a bit like Franz Von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg in 1938 expecting plaudits for having been able to restrict the opening of concentration camps as a result of having agreed to enter Coalition in January 1933. I likes a bit of a larf of a Sunday evening Justin....Many thanks. Wickedness, misery and pure evil...Eh!?? Don't get out much i assume? Not heard about North Korea, Syria, Burma or Libya? Hyperbole is OK up to point. You are well past that point and should stop being a silly little cunt.
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Post by carlton43 on Apr 26, 2015 23:39:25 GMT
I'm not sure that any of the Tory manifesto - much of which I disagreed with - can be described as 'pure evil'. The so-called 'bedroom tax', for example has been done with a fair aim - that anyone living in a state owned property should live in one that is suitably sized. It has been implemented poorly, but even so I don't think that the effects can be described as 'evil'. I would suggest that restricting access to justice was downright evil - making it so difficult for workers to consider taking issues to Employment tribunals as a result of the imposition of prohibitive fees thereby facilitating effective slave labour and servitude to poor employers.. Woden wept. The dozy little sod actually believes this drivel.
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Post by carlton43 on Apr 26, 2015 23:42:34 GMT
I'm not sure that any of the Tory manifesto - much of which I disagreed with - can be described as 'pure evil'. The so-called 'bedroom tax', for example has been done with a fair aim - that anyone living in a state owned property should live in one that is suitably sized. It has been implemented poorly, but even so I don't think that the effects can be described as 'evil'. The bedroom tax IS evil. It also shows a total failure to understand working class lifestyles. Firstly, there is an assumption that a family can move to a smaller property every time an older child moves out. In most cases, they can't - and it's wrong to penalise them for it. Secondly, it fails to understand the role of extended family in working class communities for childcare and other kinds of support. Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails. It would particularly hit the employment opportunities of working mothers. Thirdly, the bedroom tax simply fails to recognise the degree to which many working class families who have lived in a house for many years and raised their families there consider it to be their home. I understand all of this because I was brought up on a council estate where both sides of my family had lived since it was built in the early 1930's. I know the disruptive effect that constant moves would have caused my family - socially, emotionally and economically. To be fair, they never claimed housing benefits, but moving away would have meant my mother would have been unable to leave me with relatives to go out to work - and that would have led to my family having to claim housing benefits. The bedroom tax is a product of the thinking of middle class and upper class politicians who have no idea of how working class people think or perceive the world. No wonder all three main parties are being shunned by the working class! Not you too? Evil is a stupid word that ought to be reserved to the god botherers, but insofar as it has common currency you know this is bollocks and should be ashamed of yourself.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Apr 26, 2015 23:46:00 GMT
I'm not sure you can say that the policy is born from ignorance then call it evil. Surely for something to be evil it requires intent? While accepting most of what you say, I am unsympathetic to the argument that many people 'consider it their home'. Maybe I am being heartless, but IMO the state should be providing houses to people who really need them, not letting families who don't really need them stay there. I don't really give a toss if you have formed an emotional attachment to your council house.If that's the case, would you care to explain why over 60 year olds are exempt from the "bedroom tax"? Also, are you aware that there is a shortage of 1 and 2 bedroom properties, for people to downsize to? Oh, and while I'm here, I'll give you a scenario - Mum and Dad have split up - daughter lives with Mum during the week, but now Dad can't afford to pay the bedroom tax, so has to downsize to a 1 bed flat - therefore daughter cannot stay with Dad - what happens to her relationship with her Dad? 1) Because politicians can't help themselves chasing the grey vote 2) Yes I am aware, that is why I support the Lib Dem policy on this issue 3) I am first going to take issue with the idea of the Dad 'paying the bedroom tax', as we have established on this forum that he will simply receive less of a handout from the state As to the issue raised though, this is sad but I think a necessary evil (bear in mind that under my government this policy would not be necessary due to the availability of housing). The Dad should be grateful that he is getting anything from the state, as the state has no inherent responsibility to help him out at all.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,722
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Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 26, 2015 23:46:10 GMT
Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails Additionally, the way it's implemented means that to escape it you often have to move to an entirely different town, and often to more expensive accommodation. Around where I am there are no one-bedroom council properties, even the flats around the corner from me are two-bed. They let at about £70pw. A one-bed private sector flat just down the road is £110pw. To find a one-bed council flat you'd have to move maybe ten miles away unless you could afford to pay the "fine" while waiting for somebody to die in one of the nearer flats. The housing association I used to be a board member of spend most of the 2000s spending decent money getting rid of their bedsits and one-bed properties, either knocking them down or knocking them together. Who's going to pay us to split them up back into one-beds? At least (as far as I can remember) the private sector bedroom "tax" was only "levied" when you moved house, not in the middle of a tenancy.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,722
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Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 26, 2015 23:54:19 GMT
The Dad should be grateful that he is getting anything from the state, as the state has no inherent responsibility to help him out at all. It's comments like that that make me wonder whether the poster's alligence is coloured wrong, or whether mine is coloured wrong.
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Post by Zardoz on Apr 27, 2015 0:21:41 GMT
I don't really give a toss if you have formed an emotional attachment to your council house. That comment says it all!
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Post by Zardoz on Apr 27, 2015 0:23:05 GMT
The bedroom tax IS evil. It also shows a total failure to understand working class lifestyles. Firstly, there is an assumption that a family can move to a smaller property every time an older child moves out. In most cases, they can't - and it's wrong to penalise them for it. Secondly, it fails to understand the role of extended family in working class communities for childcare and other kinds of support. Moving to smaller properties would often mean a move away from the support of extended family - with all that entails. It would particularly hit the employment opportunities of working mothers. Thirdly, the bedroom tax simply fails to recognise the degree to which many working class families who have lived in a house for many years and raised their families there consider it to be their home. I understand all of this because I was brought up on a council estate where both sides of my family had lived since it was built in the early 1930's. I know the disruptive effect that constant moves would have caused my family - socially, emotionally and economically. To be fair, they never claimed housing benefits, but moving away would have meant my mother would have been unable to leave me with relatives to go out to work - and that would have led to my family having to claim housing benefits. The bedroom tax is a product of the thinking of middle class and upper class politicians who have no idea of how working class people think or perceive the world. No wonder all three main parties are being shunned by the working class! I would suggest that your post makes a case that the "bedroom tax" is misguided or flawed but not evil. For a policy to be evil I would suggest that there would need to be an intent to cause harm and I don't think anyone rational thinks that this policy was designed to cause harm. OK, I'll accept that - but its effects are certainly evil.
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Post by johnloony on Apr 27, 2015 1:51:06 GMT
The problem is, people don't seem to see what Liberal Democrats have done well over the past 5 years. It's not always easy to keep to your promises when you are in government with a party which doesn't share the same views as your own. VOTE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT! It think it was the Independent last week that published a survey saying the Lib Dems have delivered more of their manifesto than all but two governments in my lifetime. But we've been woeful about telling people about it. The flaw in that logic is the assumption that people voted Lib Dem in 2010 for the purpose of getting the Lib Dem manifesto enacted.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 5:02:35 GMT
It think it was the Independent last week that published a survey saying the Lib Dems have delivered more of their manifesto than all but two governments in my lifetime. But we've been woeful about telling people about it. With respect it's not simply a question of how much of the LibDem manifesto has been implemented, it's also a matter of how much human wickedness and misery they share responsibility for by facilitating implementation of the Tory manifesto - parts of which were pure evil. Probably a bit like Franz Von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg in 1938 expecting plaudits for having been able to restrict the opening of concentration camps as a result of having agreed to enter Coalition in January 1933. *long, deep sigh*
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Post by froome on Apr 27, 2015 6:00:25 GMT
How many LD-held seats has Ashcroft NOT polled? Scotland: 2 CSER, O&S Wales: 1 Ceredigion North West: 1 W&L Yorkshire: 1 Leeds NW Eastern: 1 North Norfolk London: 1 Twickenham South West: 2 Bath, Yeovil North East, South East, West Midlands, East Midlands 0 I make that 9. There's only 1 of those 9 I'd think was realistically under any threat. So to get this thread back on to its theme... Does anyone know if we are likely to see any Ashcroft polls for any of these constituencies? Certainly here in Bath the Lib Dems are worried about whether they can keep this seat, and I wouldn't want to predict the outcome here yet.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Apr 27, 2015 6:53:02 GMT
The Dad should be grateful that he is getting anything from the state, as the state has no inherent responsibility to help him out at all. It's comments like that that make me wonder whether the poster's alligence is coloured wrong, or whether mine is coloured wrong. Personally I think the state should provide a safety net, but I don't think it is unreasonable to think that anyone getting free money should be grateful.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 7:29:21 GMT
It's comments like that that make me wonder whether the poster's alligence is coloured wrong, or whether mine is coloured wrong. Personally I think the state should provide a safety net, but I don't think it is unreasonable to think that anyone getting free money should be grateful. Free money? My mother worked every hour she could to provide for her children, but still required support through the family allowance provision. All of her children have worked all our lives and paid our taxes - none of us had an easy ride but have paid back in spades what we received and it would bring us satisfaction to think that this offered the kind of support that we received. I am really surprised by your posts on this thread, Iain.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Apr 27, 2015 8:15:17 GMT
You make a fair point, though I would point out that I was really talking about council houses, which I would maintain should not be 'homes' in the way that some here want.
As to whether or not one is grateful - would you not be grateful to e.g. A bus driver, even though you have paid?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 9:41:07 GMT
If you have no option but to live in a council house due to the cost of housing and work 50 hours a week in the NHS, as my mother did at the time, why should she be any more grateful for having a home than somebody whose work is valued differently (in monetary terms) so can afford their own house. It is the idea that I didn't grow up in a home to which I had the right to be emotionally attached that I find strange. Grateful sure, but not the gratitude of a beggar at the end of the table.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 27, 2015 9:45:01 GMT
The Lib Dems as von Papen and Hugenburg and the Tories as Naz1s...
I'll never forgive the Conservatives for burning down my local Reichstag and blaming it on TUSC.
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