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Post by Devonian on Jun 6, 2014 17:34:06 GMT
I was just having a read of a Guardian article about anti-UKIP tactical voting by Labour voters and seeing some of the comments underneath from typical Guardian commenters some of whom say they would do this. The fact is that many of these people will think of themselves as being fiercely left wing and radical and yet as soon they are told a story about 'nasty UKIP' they come running back to nurse for fear of something worse. And of course these are he same type of people who will, without any sense of self awareness, accuse UKIP voters of being the ones motivated by fear.
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Post by Andrew_S on Jun 6, 2014 17:41:07 GMT
I was just having a read of a Guardian article about anti-UKIP tactical voting by Labour voters and seeing some of the comments underneath from typical Guardian commenters some of whom say they would do this. The fact is that many of these people will think of themselves as being fiercely left wing and radical and yet as soon they are told a story about 'nasty UKIP' they come running back to nurse for fear of something worse. And of course these are he same type of people who will, without any sense of self awareness, accuse UKIP voters of being the ones motivated by fear. Maybe UKIP is a cunning invention by the Tories to get Guardian readers to do the seemingly impossible and vote Conservative.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 17:57:56 GMT
This is possibly down to wishful thinking and a wish for some kind of Grauny paradise where nobody will laugh at their worries about making one's own pesto. Yes, Scottish exceptionalists tend to imagine that Scotland is all like Edinburgh Central and Glasgow Kelvin, which it absolutely isn't.
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Jun 6, 2014 18:02:05 GMT
Scotland is 'different' from England in a way that Wales isn't, but not in that way, yeah.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 6, 2014 18:27:36 GMT
I'm just popping out for some Latvian cheese.
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 6, 2014 19:54:14 GMT
It seems possible that some of the softer Tories who switched to the SNP in 2011 are starting to drift back. Not sure that many of them were ever more than short-term switchers though. There are a lot of people (mainly writing for the Guardian) who either forget or refuse to believe that there is a sizeable right-wing constituency in Scotland, as there is in pretty much every democratic nation. That this right-wing constituency is probably of a wetter bent than that in England (I hope our resident Scottish Tories can confirm or deny this) seems to never enter their calculations. This is possibly down to wishful thinking and a wish for some kind of Grauny paradise where nobody will laugh at their worries about making one's own pesto. Fully accept your premise that the right of centre constituency in Scotland is more Tory than Thatcherite, modernist Conservative or Whig, but I live through Edinburgh and in the Highlands! To me the Tory faction was to an extent more wet and more socially conservative than the southern branch. It is more grounded in land, agriculture, fishing and an attitude to life than to fiscal policy and mechanistic economic liberalism. It was at a severe disjunct to Thatcherite economics and Cameron social modernism. Thus it was nearly completely shed by the Conservative party over 2-3 decades in the way that similar constituency is now bifurcating from the Conservatives in England, to be replaced by rather dry social democrats with overtly liberal social views.........but not enough of them, because there are not many to recruit! Yes we are the sort of people who do read the Guardian as well as the Press and Journal. We make our own custard and our own pesto.....and that does pose worries!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 19:54:18 GMT
I was just having a read of a Guardian article about anti-UKIP tactical voting by Labour voters and seeing some of the comments underneath from typical Guardian commenters some of whom say they would do this. The fact is that many of these people will think of themselves as being fiercely left wing and radical and yet as soon they are told a story about 'nasty UKIP' they come running back to nurse for fear of something worse. And of course these are he same type of people who will, without any sense of self awareness, accuse UKIP voters of being the ones motivated by fear. In a four party system tactical voting is the norm, and it does not please the electorate, but they feel it is necessary. The Ulster Unionist voting SDLP will not be a happy bunny, but if SF are done out of a seat the bitter pill will be swallowed. I have always been annoyed by tactical voting but accept it is usually based on some form of rational choice.
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Post by Devonian on Jun 6, 2014 20:23:56 GMT
I was just having a read of a Guardian article about anti-UKIP tactical voting by Labour voters and seeing some of the comments underneath from typical Guardian commenters some of whom say they would do this. The fact is that many of these people will think of themselves as being fiercely left wing and radical and yet as soon they are told a story about 'nasty UKIP' they come running back to nurse for fear of something worse. And of course these are he same type of people who will, without any sense of self awareness, accuse UKIP voters of being the ones motivated by fear. In a four party system tactical voting is the norm, and it does not please the electorate, but they feel it is necessary. The Ulster Unionist voting SDLP will not be a happy bunny, but if SF are done out of a seat the bitter pill will be swallowed. I have always been annoyed by tactical voting but accept it is usually based on some form of rational choice. Of course tactical voting is the norm. I am just wondering what is the rational switching votes from Labour to what seems like a very right wing tory in a way that boosts the Conservative Party and hurts the Labour Party? The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. I'm sure when 'far leftists' like yourself canvass you hear people who say they agree with you but 'I'll vote Labour - hold on to nurse for fear of something worse' I can understand the rationale. When, because of stories they have heard about UKIP, the same kind of people hold on to a nurse who is not only a tory but gives every impression of being a very right wing tory it strikes me as being quite ridiculous
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 6, 2014 20:44:19 GMT
I'm just popping out for some Latvian cheese. They had an article the other day about a beer style they called "London Murky", which turned out to be cloudy beer with too many hops in it.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 6, 2014 20:47:34 GMT
There are a lot of people (mainly writing for the Guardian) who either forget or refuse to believe that there is a sizeable right-wing constituency in Scotland, as there is in pretty much every democratic nation. That this right-wing constituency is probably of a wetter bent than that in England (I hope our resident Scottish Tories can confirm or deny this) seems to never enter their calculations. This is possibly down to wishful thinking and a wish for some kind of Grauny paradise where nobody will laugh at their worries about making one's own pesto. Yes we are the sort of people who do read the Guardian as well as the Press and Journal. We make our own custard and our own pesto.....and that does pose worries! The difference is though, Carlton- I'm sure your every waking hour isn't determined by the Schleswig-Pesto Question!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 20:51:29 GMT
In a four party system tactical voting is the norm, and it does not please the electorate, but they feel it is necessary. The Ulster Unionist voting SDLP will not be a happy bunny, but if SF are done out of a seat the bitter pill will be swallowed. I have always been annoyed by tactical voting but accept it is usually based on some form of rational choice. Of course tactical voting is the norm. I am just wondering what is the rational switching votes from Labour to what seems like a very right wing tory in a way that boosts the Conservative Party and hurts the Labour Party? The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. I'm sure when 'far leftists' like yourself canvass you hear people who say they agree with you but 'I'll vote Labour - hold on to nurse for fear of something worse' I can understand the rationale. When, because of stories they have heard about UKIP, the same kind of people hold on to a nurse who is not only a tory but gives every impression of being a very right wing tory it strikes me as being quite ridiculous Is rational choice rational that is the question? If I were a Labour supporter in Newark I would have voted UKIP probably.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 20:55:42 GMT
The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. It'll certainly be interesting to see this new short manifesto from UKIP that Diane James was talking about last night. I do suspect that it will seek to position UKIP as something other than the Tory Right in Exile, which might have been a fair description of their 2010 manifesto.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jun 6, 2014 21:19:55 GMT
It seems possible that some of the softer Tories who switched to the SNP in 2011 are starting to drift back. Not sure that many of them were ever more than short-term switchers though. There are a lot of people (mainly writing for the Guardian) who either forget or refuse to believe that there is a sizeable right-wing constituency in Scotland, as there is in pretty much every democratic nation. That this right-wing constituency is probably of a wetter bent than that in England (I hope our resident Scottish Tories can confirm or deny this) seems to never enter their calculations. This is possibly down to wishful thinking and a wish for some kind of Grauny paradise where nobody will laugh at their worries about making one's own pesto. Yes, but most of the Scottish left would laugh at them for that too. Hell, I would, and I'm a walking stereotype of an out-of-touch left-wing intellectual.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 6, 2014 21:24:45 GMT
Yes we are the sort of people who do read the Guardian as well as the Press and Journal. We make our own custard and our own pesto.....and that does pose worries! The difference is though, Carlton- I'm sure your every waking hour isn't determined by the Schleswig-Pesto Question! one bought it in Borough market, one forgot it in Waitrose and the other sent out for Quorn pizza.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jun 6, 2014 21:25:02 GMT
In a four party system tactical voting is the norm, and it does not please the electorate, but they feel it is necessary. The Ulster Unionist voting SDLP will not be a happy bunny, but if SF are done out of a seat the bitter pill will be swallowed. I have always been annoyed by tactical voting but accept it is usually based on some form of rational choice. Of course tactical voting is the norm. I am just wondering what is the rational switching votes from Labour to what seems like a very right wing tory in a way that boosts the Conservative Party and hurts the Labour Party? The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. I'm sure when 'far leftists' like yourself canvass you hear people who say they agree with you but 'I'll vote Labour - hold on to nurse for fear of something worse' I can understand the rationale. When, because of stories they have heard about UKIP, the same kind of people hold on to a nurse who is not only a tory but gives every impression of being a very right wing tory it strikes me as being quite ridiculous It's got very little to do with that. It's not about where UKIP stand on the political spectrum (and except in the most general terms, left and right are decidedly abstract concepts.) It's about UKIP's (the voters' more than the party's) hostility to immigrants and in general to people who aren't like them. If you make voting all about cultural issues, you're going to get a backlash from those who subscribe to different cultural norms. Besides, it doesn't really hurt the Labour Party. We lose just as much whether it's by one vote or by 10,000 and in three days time nobody will remember where we finished except for a small bunch of obsessives.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 6, 2014 21:29:27 GMT
A butler sink, but not a belfast sink? So I'm not the only one who listens to The Archers i have to confess, not for 30 years but when a governor our headteacher was always referring to the butler sinks, and we have one at the theatre to wash brushes in when re-painting the floor for a new show - so I thought I should look up what the derivation and difference was.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 6, 2014 21:36:11 GMT
I'm just popping out for some Latvian cheese. They had an article the other day about a beer style they called "London Murky", which turned out to be cloudy beer with too many hops in it. A spiritual descendant of Hull Cheese, perhaps.
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Post by Devonian on Jun 6, 2014 22:13:29 GMT
Of course tactical voting is the norm. I am just wondering what is the rational switching votes from Labour to what seems like a very right wing tory in a way that boosts the Conservative Party and hurts the Labour Party? The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. I'm sure when 'far leftists' like yourself canvass you hear people who say they agree with you but 'I'll vote Labour - hold on to nurse for fear of something worse' I can understand the rationale. When, because of stories they have heard about UKIP, the same kind of people hold on to a nurse who is not only a tory but gives every impression of being a very right wing tory it strikes me as being quite ridiculous It's got very little to do with that. It's not about where UKIP stand on the political spectrum (and except in the most general terms, left and right are decidedly abstract concepts.) It's about UKIP's (the voters' more than the party's) hostility to immigrants and in general to people who aren't like them. If you make voting all about cultural issues, you're going to get a backlash from those who subscribe to different cultural norms. Besides, it doesn't really hurt the Labour Party. We lose just as much whether it's by one vote or by 10,000 and in three days time nobody will remember where we finished except for a small bunch of obsessives. Well that's exactly my point. People hear that UKIP wants to control immigration, that sets off a Pavlovian fear reaction in their brains that says "they want to control immigration, that means they must be hostile to immigrants, that means they must be hostile to people who aren't like them, maybe they'll think I'm not like them, maybe they hate me" and on the basis of this irrational reaction they declare themselves willing to vote for a hard right tory. I understand the reaction, I just don't have a great deal of sympathy for it. As for what hurt Labour that wasn't so much Labour's position, although that doesn't help, but the Tories'. Anything that boosts the Tories directly hurts Labour.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 6, 2014 22:15:21 GMT
There are a lot of people (mainly writing for the Guardian) who either forget or refuse to believe that there is a sizeable right-wing constituency in Scotland, as there is in pretty much every democratic nation. That this right-wing constituency is probably of a wetter bent than that in England (I hope our resident Scottish Tories can confirm or deny this) seems to never enter their calculations. This is possibly down to wishful thinking and a wish for some kind of Grauny paradise where nobody will laugh at their worries about making one's own pesto. Yes, but most of the Scottish left would laugh at them for that too. Hell, I would, and I'm a walking stereotype of an out-of-touch left-wing intellectual. The Scottish Left would. But I suspect if you write for the Staggers or (Lord above) Red Pepper, pesto is a feminist issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 0:59:54 GMT
Well that's exactly my point. People hear that UKIP wants to control immigration, that sets off a Pavlovian fear reaction in their brains that says "they want to control immigration, that means they must be hostile to immigrants, that means they must be hostile to people who aren't like them, maybe they'll think I'm not like them, maybe they hate me" and on the basis of this irrational reaction they declare themselves willing to vote for a hard right tory. I understand the reaction, I just don't have a great deal of sympathy for it. I don't think it's quite like that. It's more that UKIP have taken on a fairly specific cultural aesthetic that appeals strongly to some people but repels many others (and yes, I'm aware that the Greens do this too to an extent). The Conservatives are (intentionally) broad enough that this doesn't apply to them to anything like the same extent.
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