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Post by carlton43 on Nov 11, 2016 14:12:51 GMT
And with that the straw that I had clutched is wrenched out of my hand. He also denies evolution. So he's a pillock as well. A Creationist?
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Richard Allen
Banned
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 11, 2016 14:19:15 GMT
He also denies evolution. So he's a pillock as well. A Creationist? I am afraid that he is very religious, seemingly a true believer rather than a typical GOP politician who just says what the religious right want to hear.
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Jack
Reform Party
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Post by Jack on Nov 11, 2016 14:21:17 GMT
He also denies evolution. So he's a pillock as well. A Creationist? Yes, and he's said in the past that he wants creationism taught in schools. And that creationism is the only "rational explanation for the known universe".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 14:25:01 GMT
How much of an effect did the Green vole have on preventing Clinton winning the Electoral College? Not that much. An argument can be made at least that Nader cost Gore the White House in 2000, not really the case this time. Though I've often wondered whether Nader's vote might actually have been somewhat similar to the pre-coalition LibDem vote here (as it actually was, rather than as many commentators thought it was).
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 11, 2016 14:25:12 GMT
Yes, and he's said in the past that he wants creationism taught in schools. And that creationism is the only "rational explanation for the known universe". Woden wept! What happened to America? It is thrustful, vigorous and often very crude, yet modern secularism seems to be decades behind the rest of the West. How did this religiosity hang on so strongly in an otherwise rather modern nation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 14:39:24 GMT
Yes, and he's said in the past that he wants creationism taught in schools. And that creationism is the only "rational explanation for the known universe". Woden wept! What happened to America? It is thrustful, vigorous and often very crude, yet modern secularism seems to be decades behind the rest of the West. How did this religiosity hang on so strongly in an otherwise rather modern nation? Religion in America is often a key part of identity. In an atomised and very mobile society, churches provide instant communities - Reminds me of something a friend said - ... We join identity groups to provide mental comfort. These are communal mental constructs, like a sort of non-financial currency. We look at ourselves as actors on a stage in a play from our own pen. And we alter the script to make us heroic winners, heroically defiant ought-to-be-winners, part of a large group too big to be tangled with, part of a group that provides love and respect, part of a group that give a sense of where we come from, or where we are going. We select from politics, class, race, religion, football, whatever ---- anything will do! It is all a bit sad & sorry really, but we cant help it. Perhaps we should dip our oars into icy seas, and strive to have no beliefs & no identities. But that seems a bit bleak.
If I was a proper geezer I could be a Man Utd supporter, and be much happier. Your team are rubbish.
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 11, 2016 14:46:42 GMT
Woden wept! What happened to America? It is thrustful, vigorous and often very crude, yet modern secularism seems to be decades behind the rest of the West. How did this religiosity hang on so strongly in an otherwise rather modern nation? Religion in America is often a key part of identity. In an atomised and very mobile society, churches provide instant communities - Reminds me of something a friend said - ... We join identity groups to provide mental comfort. These are communal mental constructs, like a sort of non-financial currency. We look at ourselves as actors on a stage in a play from our own pen. And we alter the script to make us heroic winners, heroically defiant ought-to-be-winners, part of a large group too big to be tangled with, part of a group that provides love and respect, part of a group that give a sense of where we come from, or where we are going. We select from politics, class, race, religion, football, whatever ---- anything will do! It is all a bit sad & sorry really, but we cant help it. Perhaps we should dip our oars into icy seas, and strive to have no beliefs & no identities. But that seems a bit bleak.
If I was a proper geezer I could be a Man Utd supporter, and be much happier. Your team are rubbish.Yes. That seems to describe it well. Does anyone think that it may be their undoing? I have felt for sometime that they are past summer and getting into a national autumn that might be short-lived and morph into an early and deep winter?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 15:06:08 GMT
Not that much. An argument can be made at least that Nader cost Gore the White House in 2000, not really the case this time. Though I've often wondered whether Nader's vote might actually have been somewhat similar to the pre-coalition LibDem vote here (as it actually was, rather than as many commentators thought it was). The only poll of Nader voters 2nd choice with a proper sample I know of says they would have split: Gore 45% Bush 27% Stayed home 28% I am fairly sure there were Stein voters with Trump as 2nd choice this year as well. These patterns are complex.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 11, 2016 15:34:12 GMT
Even that would probably have been enough to get Gore a win in Florida (though perhaps not NH) and with it the electoral college.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 15:35:17 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 15:43:20 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 15:48:53 GMT
An Atlas poster made this summary:
"PV status: Clinton: 60,440,203, 47.7% (+389,769 or 0.3%) Trump: 60,050,434, 47.4
Still not counted:
California: Over 4 million votes out. Washington: 553 precincts out, 381 of which are in Democratic majority counties. Utah: 486 precincts, 286 are in liberal SLC. Illinois: 93 precincts out, all in Cook County (Metro Chicago) New York: 51 out, all in D counties, including 19 on Manhattan New Jersey: 47 out, all in D counties Connecticut: 27 out, all but one in D counties Pennsylvania: 22 out, all in Philadelphia Oregon: 12 precincts, all in Portland Texas: 3 precincts (all R) Virginia: 3 out, 2 D and1 R Maryland: 2 out, both in Baltimore. Alaska: 1 precinct, no clue where Nebraska: 1 precinct (R) Iowa: 1 precinct (R) Missouri: 1 precinct (R)
So basically, Clinton's PV lead is going to grow"
Clinton will likely end up winning the popular vote with about 3 mio.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 16:04:18 GMT
Religion in America is often a key part of identity. In an atomised and very mobile society, churches provide instant communities - Reminds me of something a friend said - ... We join identity groups to provide mental comfort. These are communal mental constructs, like a sort of non-financial currency. We look at ourselves as actors on a stage in a play from our own pen. And we alter the script to make us heroic winners, heroically defiant ought-to-be-winners, part of a large group too big to be tangled with, part of a group that provides love and respect, part of a group that give a sense of where we come from, or where we are going. We select from politics, class, race, religion, football, whatever ---- anything will do! It is all a bit sad & sorry really, but we cant help it. Perhaps we should dip our oars into icy seas, and strive to have no beliefs & no identities. But that seems a bit bleak.
If I was a proper geezer I could be a Man Utd supporter, and be much happier. Your team are rubbish.Yes. That seems to describe it well. Does anyone think that it may be their undoing? I have felt for sometime that they are past summer and getting into a national autumn that might be short-lived and morph into an early and deep winter? The USA has been living for a long time on the accumulated moral capital of a world which is long gone: the conservative, religious, ancestrally north European, mostly rural society which gave America its national myths. The rise of the Religious Right represented a rearguard action against the dilution of that America by new waves of less easily assimilable immigrants, secularism and - ironically - capitalism (the corrosive effects of which on traditional values were noted by Marx). However, the Religious Right failed because the tendencies against which it railed were already too far advanced, and because it offered no coherent or convincing blueprint for governing the kind of society that now actually exists. Returning to Marx, he also also famously said that: - "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". I think the churches in America will continue to dispense their opium for a long time to come, but religion there is retreating into the private sphere and the search for a substitute governing principle for society will not be easy or uncontentious.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 11, 2016 16:06:04 GMT
I don't actually disagree with much of that but the wording and tone of it perfectly sums up why Clinton lost.
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Jack
Reform Party
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Post by Jack on Nov 11, 2016 16:24:01 GMT
Do they not realise that this sort of thing just helps Trump?
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mondialito
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Post by mondialito on Nov 11, 2016 16:54:49 GMT
Do they not realise that this sort of thing just helps Trump? Worse, it undermines those who have and WILL face harassment in future.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 18:22:12 GMT
The behaviour of Clinton voters following the result is disgusting. Looting, violence and attacking police officers, If i was on the left I would be ashamed to call those my voters. Right wing voters get tough treatment, while lefties can throw their toys out the pram, smash up their town and head back to their safe space while facing little or no punishment. The only person from the left who has an understanding of why Clinton lost is Merseymike
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akmd
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Post by akmd on Nov 11, 2016 18:29:30 GMT
Looking at the results state by state, I'm struck by how Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Virginia all voted. All 4 of these states voted Republican in 2004, went to Obama in 2008 and 2012 and were all held by Clinton on Tuesday. I'm less familiar with US politics than UK politics so I'm curious to know why these states have shifted from Republican to Democrat (in presidential elections at least) in the past 12 years.
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Rural Radical
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Post by Rural Radical on Nov 11, 2016 18:41:24 GMT
Looking at the results state by state, I'm struck by how Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Virginia all voted. All 4 of these states voted Republican in 2004, went to Obama in 2008 and 2012 and were all held by Clinton on Tuesday. I'm less familiar with US politics than UK politics so I'm curious to know why these states have shifted from Republican to Democrat (in presidential elections at least) in the past 12 years. I would say Hispanic population growth for the first 3 and Washington DC suburbia for Virginia
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 11, 2016 18:43:37 GMT
Looking at the results state by state, I'm struck by how Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Virginia all voted. All 4 of these states voted Republican in 2004, went to Obama in 2008 and 2012 and were all held by Clinton on Tuesday. I'm less familiar with US politics than UK politics so I'm curious to know why these states have shifted from Republican to Democrat (in presidential elections at least) in the past 12 years. The first three mainly down to the growth in the Hispanic vote (and the obviously well-observed tendency of Trump to piss off this demographic) and Virginia is down to the growth of DC suburbs (or a continued drift in support in the existing suburbs - the entire Clinton lead in Virginia is was contained in Fairfax county, her entire lead in Colorado for that matter was in Denver or alternatively in Boulder, which points to another factor in the SW, namelyan influx of west coast liberal types
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