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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 27, 2019 20:57:44 GMT
Those are not good numbers overall. They are scarcely better than May was getting at the end of last year. There's not a lot of good news if the PM only trusted by a quarter of the country (and I'm amazed it's that high). Given the barrage of abuse and propaganda Boris has faced I had feared it'd be lower. Also, Boris has been in situ for four days, your party's man for four years. I'd say it's far worse for Labour. Oh, and before anyone says it, I'm not spinning, just giving my opinion. You say that like it's a disadvantage for Corbyn. If he'd been in post for only four days he'd have better ratings.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 27, 2019 21:00:19 GMT
Today's YouGov is showing similar changes. Lab changes look like movement around the mean to me. Opinium had Labour down a bit last time and up a bit this time. The Lib Dem results are showing fluctuation around the mean too. The big story is the Brexit to Con shift. For as long as Johnson keeps up the haloween do or die rhetoric, I'd expect voters to keep moving from light to dark blue. That's not normally how it works you know, initial polling bounces almost invariably tend to dissipate somewhat.
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Post by woollyliberal on Jul 27, 2019 21:09:20 GMT
Today's YouGov is showing similar changes. Lab changes look like movement around the mean to me. Opinium had Labour down a bit last time and up a bit this time. The Lib Dem results are showing fluctuation around the mean too. The big story is the Brexit to Con shift. For as long as Johnson keeps up the haloween do or die rhetoric, I'd expect voters to keep moving from light to dark blue. That's not normally how it works you know, initial polling bounces almost invariably tend to dissipate somewhat. There' nothing normal about what's going on now.
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Post by ccoleman on Jul 27, 2019 21:09:40 GMT
Those are not good numbers overall. They are scarcely better than May was getting at the end of last year. There's not a lot of good news if the PM only trusted by a quarter of the country (and I'm amazed it's that high). Especially when you consider the ridiculous boost the Tories got after May took over - they were occasionally polling over 50% and continued to do so right up to the GE was called. This is the supposed honeymoon period. It’s pretty rubbish really - but if it’s enough to convince the Tories to mistakenly call yet another GE then great.
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 27, 2019 21:41:45 GMT
Those are not good numbers overall. They are scarcely better than May was getting at the end of last year. There's not a lot of good news if the PM only trusted by a quarter of the country (and I'm amazed it's that high). Given the barrage of abuse and propaganda Boris has faced I had feared it'd be lower. Also, Boris has been in situ for four days, your party's man for four years. I'd say it's far worse for Labour. Oh, and before anyone says it, I'm not spinning, just giving my opinion. He has always had an easy ride in the media, the only exception being papers read by people who generally wouldn't vote for him in a month of sundays anyway.
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Post by lbarnes on Jul 27, 2019 21:45:16 GMT
Conservatives and Brexit Ltd supporters obviously approve of liars and cheats, There are as many liars in all the parties. Am much as I am not a fan of Boris, he is no worse than the rest or the alternatives. On Brexit, both sides lied as much as the other. \i don't think the alternatives to Boris have a work history littered with being fired for lying. The Leave campaign was far worse in its deception and fraud. Boris' list of ministerial appointments including many proven liars is just another example.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 27, 2019 21:48:57 GMT
Given the barrage of abuse and propaganda Boris has faced I had feared it'd be lower. Also, Boris has been in situ for four days, your party's man for four years. I'd say it's far worse for Labour. Oh, and before anyone says it, I'm not spinning, just giving my opinion. He has always had an easy ride in the media, the only exception being papers read by people who generally wouldn't vote for him in a month of sundays anyway. "An easy ride" is putting it mildly: the Telegraph has given him a platform to put over his views on a regular basis - something I don't think any future PM has had in my lifetime - ever since he resigned, and its other staff have been adulatory.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 27, 2019 21:55:35 GMT
Today's YouGov is showing similar changes. Lab changes look like movement around the mean to me. Opinium had Labour down a bit last time and up a bit this time. The Lib Dem results are showing fluctuation around the mean too. The big story is the Brexit to Con shift. For as long as Johnson keeps up the haloween do or die rhetoric, I'd expect voters to keep moving from light to dark blue. That's not normally how it works you know, initial polling bounces almost invariably tend to dissipate somewhat. I think this one will too, a bit, but if we are all correct in thinking that the bounce is at the expense of BxP it is worth remembering that the BxP Voting Intention was itself a bubble and liable to deflate (insert your own prick joke here). It will be interesting to see if Farage, Banks and Tice make any effort to arrest the slide in their vehicle, and if so whether they get anywhere. Perhaps a canary in the mine will be whether those who on here went light blue revert to True Blue Tory.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 27, 2019 22:38:32 GMT
Who the hell are the two per cent wanting to vote for the post-Chuka CHUKers? (If a Chuka could chuck CHUK) People failing to understand the question posed.
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Vibe
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Post by Vibe on Jul 27, 2019 23:41:06 GMT
There are as many liars in all the parties. Am much as I am not a fan of Boris, he is no worse than the rest or the alternatives. On Brexit, both sides lied as much as the other. \i don't think the alternatives to Boris have a work history littered with being fired for lying. The Leave campaign was far worse in its deception and fraud. Boris' list of ministerial appointments including many proven liars is just another example. I think the alternative have a lot of "history" to put it politely, far worse than lying! I don't like either BTW. I'm sure a Remainer would think like you, yet a Brexiteer would think the Remainers were more deceptive. Yet a lot of what was said was spin and opinion, often not lies. Some of the "exaggeration" on the Remain side, actually work against them.
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Post by lbarnes on Jul 28, 2019 0:19:31 GMT
\i don't think the alternatives to Boris have a work history littered with being fired for lying. The Leave campaign was far worse in its deception and fraud. Boris' list of ministerial appointments including many proven liars is just another example. I think the alternative have a lot of "history" to put it politely, far worse than lying! I don't like either BTW. I'm sure a Remainer would think like you, yet a Brexiteer would think the Remainers were more deceptive. Yet a lot of what was said was spin and opinion, often not lies. Some of the "exaggeration" on the Remain side, actually work against them. Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jul 28, 2019 7:35:30 GMT
Given the barrage of abuse and propaganda Boris has faced I had feared it'd be lower. Also, Boris has been in situ for four days, your party's man for four years. I'd say it's far worse for Labour. Oh, and before anyone says it, I'm not spinning, just giving my opinion. He has always had an easy ride in the media, the only exception being papers read by people who generally wouldn't vote for him in a month of sundays anyway. Print media outlets, maybe, but not broadcast media. The amount of times he's been accused of being guilty of the woke trifecta of doom - "racist, misogynistic and homophobic" - is incalculable. Remember those lesbians who got attacked? Channel Four took it upon themselves to announce to those women that Boris is a misogynistic homophobe and then got them to condemn him. How is that an easy ride? They literally hijacked a hate crime to have a pop at Boris.
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 28, 2019 7:47:19 GMT
He has always had an easy ride in the media, the only exception being papers read by people who generally wouldn't vote for him in a month of sundays anyway. Print media outlets, maybe, but not broadcast media. The amount of times he's been accused of being guilty of the woke trifecta of doom - "racist, misogynistic and homophobic" - is incalculable. Remember those lesbians who got attacked? Channel Four took it upon themselves to announce to those women that Boris is a misogynistic homophobe and then got them to condemn him. How is that an easy ride? They literally hijacked a hate crime to have a pop at Boris. It's not incalculable, and not out of proportion to say what Corbyn gets all the time. Since he (Boris) sees every media story as an opportunity, I suspect he's a lot more relaxed about it than you are, which is, of course, part of the story of his success.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 28, 2019 11:03:22 GMT
I think the alternative have a lot of "history" to put it politely, far worse than lying! I don't like either BTW. I'm sure a Remainer would think like you, yet a Brexiteer would think the Remainers were more deceptive. Yet a lot of what was said was spin and opinion, often not lies. Some of the "exaggeration" on the Remain side, actually work against them. Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference. Nevertheless, Vibe is essentially correct. In my view the "£350 million" was fraud because persisted with after the ONS said it was untrue, whereas (e.g.) Osborn's punishment budget threat was merely a prediction of what he believed would be needed if he was to stick to his borrowing limits (which were in fact junked, thereby making comparison with what actually happened hypothetical.) But I'm not a Leave voter. The Leave campaign was unashamedly based on emotions not facts so if the facts quoted were a bit dodgy that's not material, whereas the Remain Campaign was based on harsh realities of life outside the EU so any inaccuracy, for a Leave voter, went to the heart of the Remain case.
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Post by Vibe on Jul 28, 2019 11:03:37 GMT
I think the alternative have a lot of "history" to put it politely, far worse than lying! I don't like either BTW. I'm sure a Remainer would think like you, yet a Brexiteer would think the Remainers were more deceptive. Yet a lot of what was said was spin and opinion, often not lies. Some of the "exaggeration" on the Remain side, actually work against them. Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference. Fraud!!! That's a lie. I await to see Boris and JRM and NF in court for fraud then 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Post by lbarnes on Jul 28, 2019 11:11:46 GMT
Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference. Fraud!!! That's a lie. I await to see Boris and JRM and NF in court for fraud then 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 It's not a lie at all and I too await that trio in court. They'd join those that already have been along with the toerag that is in contempt of Parliament.
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Vibe
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Post by Vibe on Jul 28, 2019 11:17:32 GMT
Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference. Nevertheless, Vibe is essentially correct. In my view the "£350 million" was fraud because persisted with after the ONS said it was untrue, whereas (e.g.) Osborn's punishment budget threat was merely a prediction of what he believed would be needed if he was to stick to his borrowing limits (which were in fact junked, thereby making comparison with what actually happened hypothetical.) But I'm not a Leave voter. The Leave campaign was unashamedly based on emotions not facts so if the facts quoted were a bit dodgy that's not material, whereas the Remain Campaign was based on harsh realities of life outside the EU so any inaccuracy, for a Leave voter, went to the heart of the Remain case. The £350M was a factual figure, not fraud. It was the gross figure. I do agree it was a misleading figure and arguably a lie. Things like talk of An emergency budget have been proven to be a lie, or could be argued the chancellor changed his mind.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 28, 2019 11:36:24 GMT
Lots of what went on in the Leave campaign went beyond spin and even lies, it was fraud. That's the difference. Nevertheless, Vibe is essentially correct. In my view the "£350 million" was fraud because persisted with after the ONS said it was untrue, whereas (e.g.) Osborn's punishment budget threat was merely a prediction of what he believed would be needed if he was to stick to his borrowing limits (which were in fact junked, thereby making comparison with what actually happened hypothetical.) But I'm not a Leave voter. The Leave campaign was unashamedly based on emotions not facts so if the facts quoted were a bit dodgy that's not material, whereas the Remain Campaign was based on harsh realities of life outside the EU so any inaccuracy, for a Leave voter, went to the heart of the Remain case. Quite correct Adam. I agree with you. The contest was strange to observe because it was as if two armies were squaring up on different fields and facing in different directions to one another. They were seeking entirely different conflicts to one another. The propoganda on both sides was poor to bad but far more effective on the Leave side, because we understood our market so much better than Remain did. We inherently knew that our cause was all about mood management and enabling a crude heuristics to flood the minds of our putative audience. In short we bred up a very strong desire for a 'something' that was left largely unstated (and thus the construct of each man in his own head) and was therefore nearly impossible to rebut or to argue with. It was impervious to facts because it was not policy, economics or facts based. It was quite brilliant and it is one of the great sadnesses of my life that I was not involved in the planning as it was just so me. Once the core mood was implanted in the individual mind, that individual did all the rest himself and invented his own personal meta-truth of Leave. I think Johnson is now hoping to recreate this team to do the same thing for a Johnsonian take-over of the heads of a section of the right in Britain. It is to inculcate the seeds in each person that they tend and nuture into their own understanding of what Johnsonianism is. Then it doesn't matter much what he says or what the polices are, for each man will have his own paradigm and be hoping and working towards it. Eveyone will think it is all about them and in their own image. If we can pull this off.........??
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Post by matureleft on Jul 28, 2019 11:46:55 GMT
Nevertheless, Vibe is essentially correct. In my view the "£350 million" was fraud because persisted with after the ONS said it was untrue, whereas (e.g.) Osborn's punishment budget threat was merely a prediction of what he believed would be needed if he was to stick to his borrowing limits (which were in fact junked, thereby making comparison with what actually happened hypothetical.) But I'm not a Leave voter. The Leave campaign was unashamedly based on emotions not facts so if the facts quoted were a bit dodgy that's not material, whereas the Remain Campaign was based on harsh realities of life outside the EU so any inaccuracy, for a Leave voter, went to the heart of the Remain case. Quite correct Adam. I agree with you. The contest was strange to observe because it was as if two armies were squaring up on different fields and facing in different directions to one another. They were seeking entirely different conflicts to one another.The propoganda on both sides was poor to bad but far more effective on the Leave side, because we understood our market so much better than Remain did. We inherently knew that our cause was all about mood management and enabling a crude heuristics to flood the minds of our putative audience. In short we bred up a very strong desire for a 'something' that was left largely unstated (and thus the construct of each man in his own head) and was therefore nearly impossible to rebut or to argue with. It was impervious to facts because it was not policy, economics or facts based. It was quite brilliant and it is one of the great sadnesses of my life that I was not involved in the planning as it was just so me. Once the core mood was implanted in the individual mind, that individual did all the rest himself and invented his own personal meta-truth of Leave. I think Johnson is now hoping to recreate this team to do the same thing for a Johnsonian take-over of the heads of a section of the right in Britain. It is to inculcate the seeds in each person that they tend and nuture into their own understanding of what Johnsonianism is. Then it doesn't matter much what he says or what the polices are, for each man will have his own paradigm and be hoping and working towards it. Eveyone will think it is all about them and in their own image. If we can pull this off.........?? Indeed.
for the world, which seems To lie before us like a land of dreams, So various, so beautiful, so new, Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light, Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain; And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 28, 2019 12:03:14 GMT
Oh matureleft I do commend you on that brilliant choice for so many reasons. 'Dover Beach'! What better title for this subject! "..melancholy long withdrawing roar..." "..and naked shingles of the world.." Thank you.
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