hedgehog
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Aug 21, 2018 22:42:14 GMT
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Post by hedgehog on Aug 21, 2018 22:42:14 GMT
its probably not a vote winner amongst the 50% of Lib Dems & Greens that think Toties are Islamaphobic Or in any of the constituencies with a sizeable Islamic population. Does it do the Conservatives any harm though, the constituencies it would effect arn't likely to vote Tory. Islamaphobia isn't seen negatively in the way that Anti-Semitism is in the country as a whole.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 22, 2018 7:45:42 GMT
Or in any of the constituencies with a sizeable Islamic population. Does it do the Conservatives any harm though, the constituencies it would effect arn't likely to vote Tory. Islamaphobia isn't seen negatively in the way that Anti-Semitism is in the country as a whole. "Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies.
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hedgehog
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Aug 22, 2018 9:37:38 GMT
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Post by hedgehog on Aug 22, 2018 9:37:38 GMT
Does it do the Conservatives any harm though, the constituencies it would effect arn't likely to vote Tory. Islamaphobia isn't seen negatively in the way that Anti-Semitism is in the country as a whole. "Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies. Do people separate the religion from the people?, Islamaphobia for want of a better word, is mainstream, amongst the British population, and comes from a number of concerns, as regards electoral advantage, there isn't much of a downside from a tougher tone. Contrast that with Labour's problems, Anti-Semitism is seen by the general public in a totally different way, it is associated with the extreme far-right, and has very negative conutations, the very mention of it, puts off many potential voters.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 22, 2018 9:59:52 GMT
Yes there is such a thing as "Islamophobia" IMO, though I would prefer a different term.
This is not the same as simply not liking aspects of Islam, or disapproving of its more extreme manifestations.
(after all many Muslims also dislike such things)
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Deleted
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Aug 22, 2018 11:48:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 11:48:31 GMT
"Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies. Do people separate the religion from the people?, Islamaphobia for want of a better word, is mainstream, amongst the British population, and comes from a number of concerns, as regards electoral advantage, there isn't much of a downside from a tougher tone. Contrast that with Labour's problems, Anti-Semitism is seen by the general public in a totally different way, it is associated with the extreme far-right, and has very negative conutations, the very mention of it, puts off many potential voters. with Islamaphobia I dont think you can seperate religion from the person unless that person disavows their religion they will always be critised by Islamaphobes
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middyman
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Post by middyman on Aug 22, 2018 11:58:18 GMT
Yes there is such a thing as "Islamophobia" IMO, though I would prefer a different term. This is not the same as simply not liking aspects of Islam, or disapproving of its more extreme manifestations. (after all many Muslims also dislike such things) Or manifestations associated with Islam but have nothing to do with the religion but are cultural.
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 22, 2018 14:10:52 GMT
Does it do the Conservatives any harm though, the constituencies it would effect arn't likely to vote Tory. Islamaphobia isn't seen negatively in the way that Anti-Semitism is in the country as a whole. "Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies. Since the word "Islamophobia" is clearly derived from "homophobia", your criticism of the root of the word is several decades too late (incidentally, the term homophobia is much worse etymologically - since the literal translation would be "fear of the same"). And it isn't generally used to cover scepticism about the beliefs, professed benefits, and moral stances of Islam. It is used to indicate prejudice against Muslims.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 22, 2018 14:50:13 GMT
"Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies. Since the word "Islamophobia" is clearly derived from "homophobia" ... Says who? Phobias of many kinds exist, most famously claustrophobia, also agoraphobia, bataphobia (depths), arachnophobia (spiders) and lots more. "Homophobia" may be rubbish etymologically (but what would be correct?), but fear of gay people is undoubtedly irrational. Fear of the religion of islam is not. But co-opting the word to mean prejudice against muslims alone (racism won't do here) is to fall into the trap of conflating the religion and the people, and we need to avoid doing that. There are many good muslims who ignore the worst aspects of their religion. But that doesn't make islam as per its scriptures any more desirable.
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 22, 2018 15:25:06 GMT
Since the word "Islamophobia" is clearly derived from "homophobia" ... Says who? Phobias of many kinds exist, most famously claustrophobia, also agoraphobia, bataphobia (depths), arachnophobia (spiders) and lots more. "Homophobia" may be rubbish etymologically (but what would be correct?), but fear of gay people is undoubtedly irrational. Fear of the religion of islam is not. But co-opting the word to mean prejudice against muslims alone (racism won't do here) is to fall into the trap of conflating the religion and the people, and we need to avoid doing that. There are many good muslims who ignore the worst aspects of their religion. But that doesn't make islam as per its scriptures any more desirable. It is blatantly obvious, because homophobia is the only other notable use of the label "phobia" with the primary meaning of "hatred/prejudice" rather than "fear", The modern usage of Islamophobia in English only dates back to 1997, whilst the use of homophobia dates back to the 1970s, and the term was prominent well before 1997. As your objection is to the word, rather than the concept, perhaps you could explain what word we should be using to describe hatred/prejudice towards muslims? Racism is clearly an incorrect term, since Islam is a religion, rather than a race. Finally, people who are referred to (wrongly in your view) as Islamophobes are already conflating the people and the religion. The people who use the term aren't necessarily doing so.
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hedgehog
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Aug 22, 2018 16:04:58 GMT
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Post by hedgehog on Aug 22, 2018 16:04:58 GMT
Says who? Phobias of many kinds exist, most famously claustrophobia, also agoraphobia, bataphobia (depths), arachnophobia (spiders) and lots more. "Homophobia" may be rubbish etymologically (but what would be correct?), but fear of gay people is undoubtedly irrational. Fear of the religion of islam is not. But co-opting the word to mean prejudice against muslims alone (racism won't do here) is to fall into the trap of conflating the religion and the people, and we need to avoid doing that. There are many good muslims who ignore the worst aspects of their religion. But that doesn't make islam as per its scriptures any more desirable. It is blatantly obvious, because homophobia is the only other notable use of the label "phobia" with the primary meaning of "hatred/prejudice" rather than "fear", The modern usage of Islamophobia in English only dates back to 1997, whilst the use of homophobia dates back to the 1970s, and the term was prominent well before 1997. As your objection is to the word, rather than the concept, perhaps you could explain what word we should be using to describe hatred/prejudice towards muslims? Racism is clearly an incorrect term, since Islam is a religion, rather than a race. Finally, people who are referred to (wrongly in your view) as Islamophobes are already conflating the people and the religion. The people who use the term aren't necessarily doing so. I'm interested as to why you suggest Islamaphobia in the UK or to that point throughout Europe is a 'hatred' of Muslims, I would regard it all most entirely as a 'fear', very few people I would say have a hatred of Muslims. I understand this 'fear', and I don't mind admitting I share it, I consider it perfectly rational to think of a fairly homogeneous society as natural. I would argue that Islamaphobia as in 'fear' of Muslims is directly proportional to numbers of Muslims in the UK/Europe and to the numbers thought to be on the way, and to the fact that Muslim communities tend to isolate themselves from the rest of society. Sikhs and Hindus don't attract the same negative feelings as Muslims with the great British public, although their religions are just as exotic, because they aren't considered a threat. I would also compare it to Anti-Semitism, which for some on the far right is a genuine and dangerous hatred, but shared by a tiny proportion of British people. As regards Anti-Semitism on the left, I don't see hatred or fear, I think its purely political.
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 22, 2018 16:10:27 GMT
It is blatantly obvious, because homophobia is the only other notable use of the label "phobia" with the primary meaning of "hatred/prejudice" rather than "fear", The modern usage of Islamophobia in English only dates back to 1997, whilst the use of homophobia dates back to the 1970s, and the term was prominent well before 1997. As your objection is to the word, rather than the concept, perhaps you could explain what word we should be using to describe hatred/prejudice towards muslims? Racism is clearly an incorrect term, since Islam is a religion, rather than a race.
Taking the lead from "antisemitism" being a hatred/prejudice of semites, it would be anti-something. But then we're on another slippy slope. Is anti- really a hatred of things? It is more correctly "against" or "opposed to", not "hatred of". It should be possibly -disphillia (non-love) or -misia (hatred). Islamomisia anybody?
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 22, 2018 16:15:28 GMT
"Islamaphobia" is a questionable concept in the first place. A scepticism about islam, its beliefs, professed benefits and moral stances, is IMHO a very good thing. Prejudice against muslims qua muslims is, OTOH, a bad thing, but that's *not* the same thing as an irrational fear of the religion of islam, which the term implies. Since the word "Islamophobia" is clearly derived from "homophobia", your criticism of the root of the word is several decades too late (incidentally, the term homophobia is much worse etymologically - since the literal translation would be "fear of the same"). And it isn't generally used to cover scepticism about the beliefs, professed benefits, and moral stances of Islam. It is used to indicate prejudice against Muslims. I see no reason why it should have been in any way based on Homophobia. It is just a construct using 'phobia' as a morepheme to a noun. Thus it is an 'irrational dread or dislike' of a something. As such it is usually incorrectly used in this context unless one contends that all such dislike is so thinly based that it must be considered to be 'irrational' within the context? Perhaps we should all use simpler constructions such as 'I tend to dislike..........because......?
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Sept 18, 2018 13:18:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 13:18:59 GMT
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Sept 18, 2018 13:29:25 GMT
LD at 7%? Filing under "outlier" given recent spate of 10%+ polling, pending further examples.
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Sept 18, 2018 16:24:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 16:24:28 GMT
LD at 7%? Filing under "outlier" given recent spate of 10%+ polling, pending further examples. i think opinium does have a genuine house effect when it comes to the lib dems
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 19, 2018 10:08:16 GMT
And aren't most of the recent polls putting the LibDems in double figures from YouGov?
FWIW the pollsters giving them lower scores got it right last year.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Sept 19, 2018 10:31:24 GMT
Survation and BMG recently as well.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 19, 2018 10:33:08 GMT
Hence the "most" above.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 10:55:35 GMT
Though the last ICM, DeltaPoll & Kantar all have the Lib Dems in single figures
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Sept 19, 2018 19:17:04 GMT
Though the last ICM, DeltaPoll & Kantar all have the Lib Dems in single figures Kantar have now joined the 10% club.
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