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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 2, 2019 8:56:35 GMT
Is the rise due to environmental issues rising up the agenda, or just the need for an electable left-of-centre party while the SPD circle the plughole? Or a bit of both? From what i am gleaning there may something similar happening than in the UK, that is the SPD chairwoman has been getting some stick from party friends for a few days for the EP results. That type of news does tend to lower ratings over time. One quote i can remember was "shies voters away", but i've not been paying close attention, so a pinch of salt may be in order here. Also i seem to recollect Forsa having a record for imaginative polling, even as an established pollster. Someone in the party said the other day that "we have 153 deputies in the Bundestag, 152 of whom are better than Andrea Nahles".
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Jun 2, 2019 9:52:08 GMT
Andrea Nahles resigned as SPD leader
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 2, 2019 9:56:30 GMT
Andrea Nahles resigned as SPD leader Let's see if they now manage to make things even worse......
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jun 2, 2019 10:51:06 GMT
Her probable successor(s) look more popular but also more right wing/pro-grand coalition.
Its amazing to think that Nahles was once portrayed as an anti-establishment left wing politician.
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Post by jamie on Jun 2, 2019 10:53:54 GMT
It's surely just that the 'normalisation' of politics in East Germany (if you can be allowed to call it that) has taken longer than observers like ourselves would like it to have done, because that's the pace that things actually move at 'on the ground' ? In a way East Germany is undergoing a period of ‘denormalisation’. Compared to 2017, the AFD fell back nationally in the euros. However, they stood still or even advanced in much of East Germany. They really fell back in southern Germany.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2019 11:18:49 GMT
Her probable successor(s) look more popular but also more right wing/pro-grand coalition. Its amazing to think that Nahles was once portrayed as an anti-establishment left wing politician. Can't see the point of a supposedly left wing party whose only purpose appears to be to back up Conservative led government
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Post by jamie on Jun 2, 2019 11:59:47 GMT
Can't see the point of a supposedly left wing party whose only purpose appears to be to back up Conservative led government Well the CDU is in many ways only a supposedly right wing party. While their polling is absolutely dire, the SPD have actually got most of their policies implemented through the grand coalition. I’m sure the SPD would be happy to lead a government, they just can’t while always polling behind potential coalition partners as they have for years now.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 2, 2019 12:24:47 GMT
Her probable successor(s) look more popular but also more right wing/pro-grand coalition. Its amazing to think that Nahles was once portrayed as an anti-establishment left wing politician. Can't see the point of a supposedly left wing party whose only purpose appears to be to back up Conservative led government I've encountered a fair few Germans who see both as sozial, and would not vote for a party they do not consider sozial (this normally means the FDP and sometimes the Greens). Basically, they see those two as rooted in civil society and collectivism, be it social or economic.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jun 2, 2019 12:27:46 GMT
Andrea Nahles resigned as SPD leader Let's see if they now manage to make things even worse...... She has said, that she will do so at some point in the future (but perhaps already tomorrow). Being some kind of "TrashGirl" she has been able to stabilize SPD for some time, what has been fading away recently (as was expectable, of course). I doubt, that her successor will achieve the same (or even more) success.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2019 12:48:06 GMT
Can't see the point of a supposedly left wing party whose only purpose appears to be to back up Conservative led government I've encountered a fair few Germans who see both as sozial, and would not vote for a party they do not consider sozial (this normally means the FDP and sometimes the Greens). Basically, they see those two as rooted in civil society and collectivism, be it social or economic. Yes, I have German friends in the SPD and they would essentially be centrist here but then so are the CDU. It isn't a brand of politics which floats my boat.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 2, 2019 12:50:03 GMT
I've encountered a fair few Germans who see both as sozial, and would not vote for a party they do not consider sozial (this normally means the FDP and sometimes the Greens). Basically, they see those two as rooted in civil society and collectivism, be it social or economic. Yes, I have German friends in the SPD and they would essentially be centrist here but then so are the CDU. It isn't a brand of politics which floats my boat. Dare I say it, but Germany has still not got over the Weimar Republic, and the SPD-CDU relationship is a prime example.
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Jun 2, 2019 12:57:29 GMT
Can't see the point of a supposedly left wing party whose only purpose appears to be to back up Conservative led government Well the CDU is in many ways only a supposedly right wing party. While their polling is absolutely dire, the SPD have actually got most of their policies implemented through the grand coalition. I’m sure the SPD would be happy to lead a government, they just can’t while always polling behind potential coalition partners as they have for years now. Well that's the thing about German politics. Apart from the (overwhelmingly Western!) left wing of the Left and o/c the AfD, there's not really that much between any of the parties, at least once one ignores image and branding. There are policy differences (and so elections and coalition formation are not without consequence), but they're relatively small and technical. The electorate is quite aware of this and votes accordingly: essentially a Potemkin pluralism that masks a very broad consensus politics has replaced the Cold War 'People's Party' framework.* Presented with the same situation as the SPD after the last federal election, the Greens would have made the same choice. And, though German polling is best left ignore outside election time except in very broad terms, may well do so after the next one. *The SPD have mentally adjusted to this particularly badly o/c.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 2, 2019 13:26:13 GMT
Speaking from extreme ignorance, it seems to me that in democracies politics, like economics, are subject to cyclical swings in which the seeds of every slump are in every boom and vice versa.
A few years ago Merkel seems untouchable, and in hindsight that was probably about the time to expect some sort of reaction. The tricky thing is that she was so centrist, especially in GroKo, that it's hard toward out where you react to.
That would explain a wobble to the right (AfD) followed by a wobble to the left (Green).
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 2, 2019 13:29:37 GMT
I've encountered a fair few Germans who see both as sozial, and would not vote for a party they do not consider sozial (this normally means the FDP and sometimes the Greens). Basically, they see those two as rooted in civil society and collectivism, be it social or economic. Yes, I have German friends in the SPD and they would essentially be centrist here but then so are the CDU. It isn't a brand of politics which floats my boat. The problem is that it is quite hard to argue that it's not a brand of politics which has been pretty damn successful in Germany for about 70 years running. Or at least hard to find a brand that has done better.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2019 14:09:46 GMT
Yes, I have German friends in the SPD and they would essentially be centrist here but then so are the CDU. It isn't a brand of politics which floats my boat. The problem is that it is quite hard to argue that it's not a brand of politics which has been pretty damn successful in Germany for about 70 years running. Or at least hard to find a brand that has done better. But you're a liberal centrist, so you would think that!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 2, 2019 14:18:41 GMT
From some accounts (the Guardian for one), the SPD have been losing their reputation for boring, competent administration. Apparently their rule in Bremen has been poor in the last decade.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jun 2, 2019 15:36:56 GMT
The problem is that it is quite hard to argue that it's not a brand of politics which has been pretty damn successful in Germany for about 70 years running. Or at least hard to find a brand that has done better. But you're a liberal centrist, so you would think that! Yes you'd have to be a liberal centrist to think that Germany has done well over the past 70 years ...
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2019 15:55:56 GMT
But you're a liberal centrist, so you would think that! Yes you'd have to be a liberal centrist to think that Germany has done well over the past 70 years ... sigh....it depends what you mean by 'done well'. It has operated within the current liberal democratic political boundaries in a relatively competent fashion. If thats all you desire, then Germany has indeed done very well indeed.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 2, 2019 18:19:48 GMT
Yes you'd have to be a liberal centrist to think that Germany has done well over the past 70 years ... sigh....it depends what you mean by 'done well'. It has operated within the current liberal democratic political boundaries in a relatively competent fashion. If thats all you desire, then Germany has indeed done very well indeed. Let's put it another way, Mike. Who's done better? And yes, I am being typically centrist and liberal, but I'll take relative competence ahead of e.g. Venezuelan clusterfuck or, to be less contentious, Hollande's presidency of France. If "done well" is to be measured against some perfect imaginary government that has never existed then yes, we liberal centrists do tend to go for the proven OK over fantasy.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 2, 2019 18:21:02 GMT
Yes you'd have to be a liberal centrist to think that Germany has done well over the past 70 years ... sigh....it depends what you mean by 'done well'. It has operated within the current liberal democratic political boundaries in a relatively competent fashion. If thats all you desire, then Germany has indeed done very well indeed. Building a stable, democratic state with a strong economy, reliable public services and high levels of pay and education are all pretty good measures of doing well! The pensions are terrible, though...
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