|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 25, 2017 23:29:02 GMT
Of course the Anarchists support seperation as they believe they can deconstruct Catalonia
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Dec 26, 2017 0:51:03 GMT
Unless provision can be made for a legal and legitimate referendum this will keep rumbling on The problem is that the two sides are so close in numbers that even that may not work
|
|
|
Post by casualobserver on Dec 26, 2017 0:57:42 GMT
Unless provision can be made for a legal and legitimate referendum this will keep rumbling on The problem is that the two sides are so close in numbers that even that may not work Correct on both counts.
|
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 8,993
|
Post by maxque on Dec 26, 2017 4:32:54 GMT
Spain Judiciary is as free as ours, I see no H Blocks, this was an illegal referendum, designed to destroy Spain, a confederation of peoples and not a nation state in the European sense. The reason is it was the enemies and survivors of Franco that made the constitution so rigid. At every stage the Secessionist have lost all legal polls in relation to the popular vote. Close without doubt but I believe both sides have maxed out at stale mate. A point of interest, the right wing of the Secessionist movement are the Middle class Catalans whose families and businesses enriched themselves under Franco and have been seeking an escape of the burden caused by the bank collapse. The Guardia Civil acted like pussies compared to the Catalan Police whose reputation for violence surpasses that of any other force in the country. False, false and false. You know which party won in the wealthiest parts of Barcelona, often getting more than 50%? Citizens.
|
|
mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,384
|
Post by mboy on Dec 26, 2017 9:37:28 GMT
^ But you've already said that people voting for Citizens are non-Catalan recent Spanish immigrants, so by your own words they can hardly be established wealthy families who did well under Franco, can they?
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 26, 2017 12:01:31 GMT
What exactly is the mechanism for assigning seats between the four constituencies, and what impact does that have relative to equal apportionment or a single national list? And, given that Barcelona is significantly larger than the other three constituencies, what would be the impact of splitting it into two constituencies?
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 26, 2017 14:24:38 GMT
^ But you've already said that people voting for Citizens are non-Catalan recent Spanish immigrants, so by your own words they can hardly be established wealthy families who did well under Franco, can they? Not recent at all, although there was a large influx of working class Castilian speakers in the 50's
|
|
|
Post by mrpastelito on Dec 26, 2017 16:53:16 GMT
Did you miss the part where it was pointed out that their seats wouldn't simply be left empty? Well he missed the part where these projects repeatedly broke the law, and ignored multiple court orders...
The law, the law, the la w. What is it with your absurd adulation of the law?
In order to have a lawful referendum on independence in Catalonia, the Spanish constitution would have to be changed. It is obvious though that the majority of Castellano speaking provinces, the PP, C's and others will never agree to these changes - even if 95% of Catalans favoured independence and elected separatist parties at regional and national level.
In your warped little world they'd still have to obey the law and remain part of Spain - because it's the law!
Don't you think there's a flaw somewhere?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 17:35:44 GMT
#Tabarnia trending in Spain. The idea is to carve out a unionist region around Barcelona leaving rural/small town Catalonia to secede as the Republic of Catalonia (with Valle de Arán going to Aragon). Not realistic ofc.
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 26, 2017 19:14:01 GMT
Well he missed the part where these projects repeatedly broke the law, and ignored multiple court orders...
The law, the law, the la w. What is it with your absurd adulation of the law?
In order to have a lawful referendum on independence in Catalonia, the Spanish constitution would have to be changed. It is obvious though that the majority of Castellano speaking provinces, the PP, C's and others will never agree to these changes - even if 95% of Catalans favoured independence and elected separatist parties at regional and national level.
In your warped little world they'd still have to obey the law and remain part of Spain - because it's the law!
Don't you think there's a flaw somewhere?
They do not even have a majority in Catalonia FFS.
|
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Long may it rain
Posts: 5,512
|
Post by Foggy on Dec 26, 2017 23:33:39 GMT
What exactly is the mechanism for assigning seats between the four constituencies, and what impact does that have relative to equal apportionment or a single national list? And, given that Barcelona is significantly larger than the other three constituencies, what would be the impact of splitting it into two constituencies? Someone has done the calculations that answer your first question (based on the provisional result from Thursday night, so slightly off from the revised figures on Christmas Eve, but still a good indicator). The number of seats per constituency was fixed 40 years ago and it would only take an ordinary law to change it AFAIK, but no Catalan government has ever been interested in doing so. I guess that splitting Barcelona into two smaller constituencies would mitigate the effect of the unionists' lead in the area even further, but it would also make it more difficult for the CUP (and at the election just gone, the PP) to pass the effective threshold in each constituency.
|
|
WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,097
Member is Online
|
Post by WJ on Dec 27, 2017 0:16:11 GMT
#Tabarnia trending in Spain. The idea is to carve out a unionist region around Barcelona leaving rural/small town Catalonia to secede as the Republic of Catalonia (with Valle de Arán going to Aragon). Not realistic ofc. Yes, not at all realistic unfortunately. Several Unionist-voting Catalan and Catalonia-resident Spaniards I know are in favour of a referendum now when they weren't before. They are talking about mirroring what the Canadian supreme court dictated before one of the Quebec referenda by saying that if the Spanish state is divisible, then so is Catalonia and whatever a region votes for, it will get. (I don't know much about Quebec, this is just how it has been retold to me by them). Catalan nationalists that I know have been very touchy and cagey about their response to this idea, which is interesting given their certainty about everything else on this issue. I wonder how many independence voters would be flipped with the prospect of gutting Catalonia of it's richest regions?
|
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 8,993
|
Post by maxque on Dec 27, 2017 0:33:40 GMT
The law, the law, the la w. What is it with your absurd adulation of the law?
In order to have a lawful referendum on independence in Catalonia, the Spanish constitution would have to be changed. It is obvious though that the majority of Castellano speaking provinces, the PP, C's and others will never agree to these changes - even if 95% of Catalans favoured independence and elected separatist parties at regional and national level.
In your warped little world they'd still have to obey the law and remain part of Spain - because it's the law!
Don't you think there's a flaw somewhere?
They do not even have a majority in Catalonia FFS. There is a majority for a referendum, given than Podem is for a referendum.
|
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Long may it rain
Posts: 5,512
|
Post by Foggy on Dec 27, 2017 1:42:55 GMT
They are talking about mirroring what the Canadian supreme court dictated before one of the Quebec referenda by saying that if the Spanish state is divisible, then so is Catalonia and whatever a region votes for, it will get. (I don't know much about Quebec, this is just how it has been retold to me by them). I'm surprised Maxime hasn't addressed this point. Your friends are probably thinking of the Reference Re Secession of Québec which came after both plebiscites in La Belle Province. Much has been written about it in Castillian and Catalan in both the media and legal circles, partly thanks to recent events, but also due to the academic career of the late Carme Chacón. It hasn't settled the debate in Canada, since Conservatives and Liberals there largely refuse to accept that a 50%+1 vote would be sufficient grounds for separation in a theoretical third referendum. The NDP gets painted as a bogeyman for supporting this basic democratic principle, and at the last general election, anglo Canadians lapped it up... whilst even a lot of francophones were at least prepared to give Justin Trudeau the benefit of the doubt. The ruling was diplomatic enough to be welcomed at the time, but its findings haven't settled the argument to this day. It's held up as a potential international example even though it relied largely on interpreting the Canadian Constitution (only acknowledging international law in order to claim that Canadian law doesn't deviate from it). For example – it led to the Loi sur la clarté référendaire which would be illegal under the present Spanish Constitution, because it recognises that an independence referendum is a possibility. The Constitution of Spain mentions the term 'indivisible' near the start, but the Canadian equivalent does not do so anywhere, so the comparison isn't always instructive.
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 27, 2017 2:05:41 GMT
They do not even have a majority in Catalonia FFS. There is a majority for a referendum, given than Podem is for a referendum. yup - you are spot on with that
|
|
right
Conservative
Posts: 16,918
|
Post by right on Dec 27, 2017 15:13:45 GMT
#Tabarnia trending in Spain. The idea is to carve out a unionist region around Barcelona leaving rural/small town Catalonia to secede as the Republic of Catalonia (with Valle de Arán going to Aragon). Not realistic ofc. You see this^ This here^ This is why we must stand against the face of nationalism whenever it rears it’s ugly head. Like the head of the hydra whenever you apprase the dividers and cut of its head two more groups of self interestsed, disorder formenting opportunists take its place. I’m sure the separatists would love the partition of Catalonia, they have no principles and it would give them power in the new pro-independence state. Although the emotional "where will it end" stuff sounds good, the idea that countries of 2 million or 3 million people - particularly with a sea coast - can't form stable, democratic and prosperous states doesn't account for the fact that there are many countries like Iceland, Ireland, Malta and even Luxembourg that have got on just fine.
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 27, 2017 16:40:08 GMT
You see this^ This here^ This is why we must stand against the face of nationalism whenever it rears it’s ugly head. Like the head of the hydra whenever you apprase the dividers and cut of its head two more groups of self interestsed, disorder formenting opportunists take its place. I’m sure the separatists would love the partition of Catalonia, they have no principles and it would give them power in the new pro-independence state. Although the emotional "where will it end" stuff sounds good, the idea that countries of 2 million or 3 million people - particularly with a sea coast - can't form stable, democratic and prosperous states doesn't account for the fact that there are many countries like Iceland, Ireland, Malta and even Luxembourg that have got on just fine. If I was in charge of Spanish unionism I would at least consider that proposition. 1. Spain keeps Barcelona and Tarragona i.e. the bits they'd most regret losing, along with most oft he coast 2. Most Catalan separatists are no longer in Spain so cease to be a pain in the arse; Spain becomes more homogeneous. 3. The lines on the map are such that both sides have massive incentives to avoid hard borders and general fuckwittery. They might even start being civil to each other after a bit. It's not so different to the 1922 Irish border compromise, which does highlight the dangers, but they are avoidable if you don't turn "Tabarnia" into a mechanism for institutionalised discrimination against the minority, and if the minority does not support an irredentist insurgency - both of which should be much easier in current conditions than they were in post-Easter Rising Ireland. Realistically I presume that Catalan nationalists would reject it out of hand.
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 27, 2017 20:34:37 GMT
Of course we must get back to the main point, half the separatist leaders are trying to dodge the Spanish Judiciary over corruption and tax evasion
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 28, 2017 11:47:34 GMT
Although the emotional "where will it end" stuff sounds good, the idea that countries of 2 million or 3 million people - particularly with a sea coast - can't form stable, democratic and prosperous states doesn't account for the fact that there are many countries like Iceland, Ireland, Malta and even Luxembourg that have got on just fine. If I was in charge of Spanish unionism I would at least consider that proposition. 1. Spain keeps Barcelona and Tarragona i.e. the bits they'd most regret losing, along with most oft he coast 2. Most Catalan separatists are no longer in Spain so cease to be a pain in the arse; Spain becomes more homogeneous. 3. The lines on the map are such that both sides have massive incentives to avoid hard borders and general fuckwittery. They might even start being civil to each other after a bit. It's not so different to the 1922 Irish border compromise, which does highlight the dangers, but they are avoidable if you don't turn "Tabarnia" into a mechanism for institutionalised discrimination against the minority, and if the minority does not support an irredentist insurgency - both of which should be much easier in current conditions than they were in post-Easter Rising Ireland. Realistically I presume that Catalan nationalists would reject it out of hand. Apparently the whole thing is a hoax. elpais.com/elpais/2017/12/27/inenglish/1514368061_809906.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM_EN
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 12:06:45 GMT
If I was in charge of Spanish unionism I would at least consider that proposition. 1. Spain keeps Barcelona and Tarragona i.e. the bits they'd most regret losing, along with most oft he coast 2. Most Catalan separatists are no longer in Spain so cease to be a pain in the arse; Spain becomes more homogeneous. 3. The lines on the map are such that both sides have massive incentives to avoid hard borders and general fuckwittery. They might even start being civil to each other after a bit. It's not so different to the 1922 Irish border compromise, which does highlight the dangers, but they are avoidable if you don't turn "Tabarnia" into a mechanism for institutionalised discrimination against the minority, and if the minority does not support an irredentist insurgency - both of which should be much easier in current conditions than they were in post-Easter Rising Ireland. Realistically I presume that Catalan nationalists would reject it out of hand. Apparently the whole thing is a hoax. elpais.com/elpais/2017/12/27/inenglish/1514368061_809906.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM_ENYes, I thought I had made that clear. But an interesting one.
|
|